Free Realms Forum » General Discussion » The greed of SOE comes out

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

 

This is quite possibly the most ridiculous premise for a posting I have ever seen.

 

Developers make game, game uses Micro transaction model. Players realize they have to spend money on entertainment, rants on forums.

This is just a sign that this model is working, because you really want that banana suit, you just dont want to pay the 2$ for it.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh wait you read it wrong its one Banana Suit for $15 but it last for 7 days..haha

Kaeleen21,

I think at the heart of it all what you are saying is true.  Every bit of it, but at the same time it is also showing the exact problem without even detailing it.

Having a plan on how to make money is wise.  Creating a handful revenue models for a product as a main design focus isn't a good idea.  In order to get all those dollars, people have to actually play the game.  Gluing a few mmo features, some flash web games and some concepts from popular console games doesn't really make a great game that people are going to open their wallets for. 

Nor does releasing it feature and content light. 

Designing a game around a revenue model doesn't make great games.

Designing a game around great gameplay is what needs to be the core concept of a gaming company. 

Greed got in the way of making a good game.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Kaeleen21,

I think at the heart of it all what you are saying is true.  Every bit of it, but at the same time it is also showing the exact problem without even detailing it.

Having a plan on how to make money is wise.  Creating a handful revenue models for a product as a main design focus isn't a good idea.  In order to get all those dollars, people have to actually play the game.  Gluing a few mmo features, some flash web games and some concepts from popular console games doesn't really make a great game that people are going to open their wallets for. 

Nor does releasing it feature and content light. 

 

Designing a game around a revenue model doesn't make great games.

Designing a game around great gameplay is what needs to be the core concept of a gaming company. 

 

Greed got in the way of making a good game.

What a lot of people are forgetting is that the game is meant for the 7-14 age group first before any other age group. Short mini-games and quests that allow the player to play for around 30 minutes at a time. It's the equivlent of a child tugging on the back of their parent's shirt and trying to have them buy one of those virtual fish tanks or pocket pal type of games at the store. You know, the ones with the LCD screen that you know they will only play for 10 minutes and put it down.

Personally, I think they did a good (not superb) job of doing this. However, I have never seen advertising on TV channels that my girls watch or a physical product to bridge the target audience into the game (like WebKinz). So, not many kids even know about FreeRealms until they have grown out of the target audience range.

 Curse you SOE! Trying to make money and all!

Free realms had tv ads plastered all over cartoon network and other kids channels.  For every wizard 101, toon town there was at least one free realms ad.  That is how they got to 5 million unique accounts in a few months time.

I suspect they don't advertise the game anymore, because it isn't doing them any good.  Free realms has 10 servers and can barely get 1 or 2 of them to medium capacity.  Think about what needs to happen to get 5 million players and not be able to fill up 1 server.  Just 1.

Keep in mind a server has such a small land mass that 1,000 or so players would completely fill the server to the rim with activity. 

Originally posted by midmagic

Originally posted by thexrated

Well, micro-transaction models are in their infancy, but of course companies like SOE do what is most profitable for them. They are a business and responsible not for the gamers, but to their shareholders.

 

They are not responsible to the gamers but are responsible to the shareholders? Really? I strongly hope business people have not fallen so far. Without a happy customer base there are no shareholders because you sell nothing and the stock is worthless because no one believes in the company. Always, customers first (quality product, fun stuff, blah, blah), the more successful game companies live by this motto. This is the same random nonsensical cliche being touted around as the new "we are your boss and you answer to us" by silly people whining about the government.

Yeah....and by that logic the happiest customer is the one who gets something for nothing.  Sure, companies spring up from nothing to give away their product for nothing, all to make the "customer" happy because that is the company's job.  Not really -- every game designer who makes a game and sells it is doing it for the "greed", not just to make you happy.

I do not like microtransaction way of funding games.

One thing is the responsibillity a game company has. I mean. If I  buy loads of stuff over the years. And suddenly that company decides to pull the plug?

I  mean. If you pay a subscription. Its almost like renting a movie. You pay for the fun that you have, you see it and deliver it back. When you buy a movie you expect to keep it and be able to access it as long as you want.

In game, You pay for a month and when that month is done you have got what you payed for.  So you can either pay for a new month or leave. But when buying virtual items. You have invested in a total different way. Its a much more long term commitement by the companies that are operating the games.

And yes. Microtransactions in a game marketed towards Kids is a big no from my perspective.

Subscription based model is a much more honest way to operate any game in my opinion.

I dont mind SOEs idea to sell stuff like your characters avatar printed on a t-shirt etc. Thats creative and cool.

SOE greedy?   Of course.    You must have posted this thread from your flat in North Korea.    Here in the west we call it "Capitalism".

Don't blame SOE, blame the people that buy the stuff. If people didn't buy the best car the race would be same for all or the weapons etc.

To the OP: I think SoE owe you so much they should make a game and let you play it free.

They should never charge you anything, and they are robbers, they hold you at gunpoint to patronise their cash shop.

They also kidnap babies to sacrifce them to the mainframe god, so that the codes are bug free.

Any other additional information you want to lecture us on?

Originally posted by Spiider

 And you are suprised that they are greedy? Greed (profit) is their only motiv, only reason to exist. They do cancer research or try to find new energy sources. They exist to make money and will be remembered only for that once they go down. They have given nothing new or revolutionary to the world to make you rant like this. The solution is simple, don't play their games.

lol once they go down dude there online game section of SONY they are going no where. also hate to inform you i plan to play there mmo's for long time"EQ,EQ2,POTBS,SWG and freerealms". yeah it's people like me who keep them going but i love the mmo's even though half of them are doing poor. pure and simple there business just like wal-mart,mcdonalds and any other greed is how you succeed in BUSINESS.

Originally posted by Kaelaan21

Now, going back to the first example, wouldn't it make sense as a business to try to push as much product to a customer as possible to maximize your profit? Why loose a $15 a month sub when instead you can keep that same person for only $5 a month or possible every two months? Why limit your company to only taking $15 a month from one person if they are willing to pay $25, $35 or $50 a month for entertainment? A flat unlimited model with no possibility of additional revenue does not make financial sense unless you dominate a particular market. Yes, I feel that most of the items in a lot of games are not worth the cost. But, I did see buying a pet for $3 for my daughter was worth it. She still plays with it.

While this is the most suscinct and well thought out argument in favor of microtransactions in MMO's I've read I can't help but feel it is missing a key point.

If FreeRealms was selling "entertainment" I would agree with it. Something along the lines of the Dungeons & Dragons Online model where you buy access to an instance. Don't want to play it? Don't pay for it. Only pay for those elements that you actually find value in. An ala carte type system. You are selling the experiences.

But once you move from that to saying "Pay more and you get to compete better" is where you get into iffy territory. Now you are not buying entertainment but instead are buying an advantage. The same goes for shops that sell gear in a PvP based game. I think this is what many people rail against. (In addition to feeling "nickel and dimed", pushed and marketed to.) And it's not uncommon. If you followed the logic, why not allow atheletes to dope up? Why have weight classes in boxing?

But if it is pure "pay for your level of entertainment" I'd have to agree with you despite my aversion to cash shops. Thank you for putting it in a way I finally get.

NOTE: I have played FreeRealms ever for about 20 minutes so I can't directly speak to the reality of that game but am talking about the general concepts.

Well it might not be your favorite, but with almost 9 million active subs, it should surpass WoW in subs by year's end.  Since so many of the WoW accounts are farmers, it probably has already.

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Originally posted by fawdown
Well it might not be your favorite, but with almost 9 million active subs,

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What? Where did you pull that number out from?

Originally posted by Dreathor

 

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Originally posted by fawdown
Well it might not be your favorite, but with almost 9 million active subs,

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What? Where did you pull that number out from?

Soe has released press statements that have claimed over 10 million people have signed up for the game.

Some people read that to mean that somehow everyone that signs up for the game is an active player.

I'm not sure how many active players there are, but when a game adds 9 million people trying it out and never has to add 1 server to serve all of thoses new player it says the retention rate is horrible.  It pretty much says that the game isn't the favorite of very many people.

I've seen several people respond with snarky comments like "How *dare* SOE make money!". While I'm sure those people feel they've scored a point and sound incredibly witty at the same time, the fact is, it's nothing but a lazy, disingenuous strawman argument. No one - not one person - has said "SOE is not allowed to make money", or begrudged their right to do so as a business.

People are addressing how they go about doing it.

To start with, the whole concept of free-to-play + microtransactions is so dishonest and so disingenuous I find it amazing that people defend it the way they do.

A very common argument I see made by defenders and proponents of F2P MMOs is that paying $15 a month on a subscription is "too expensive" or "makes them feel obligated to play more to get their money's worth"**. Yet, those same people will defend the idea of paying twice that much, or potentially far more in many cases, on *single items*, rationalizing it as "well, I'm only paying for what I want and at least I'm not paying a sub". 

So, in a nutshell, the pro-F2P mindset is that paying $30, $50 $100 or more per month, every month, on individual items - some of which aren't even *permanent*  - is a good deal because "you choose to pay for them" and "there is no sub fee". However, paying a one-time $40 box/download and then a $15 flat sub fee that gets you access to everything in the game is unreasonable.

/facepalm

The gullibility of some people is astounding. No wonder F2P MMOs are making a killing.  

**As an aside... The whole "sub fees make me feel obligated to play" argument reeks of dishonest spin. In all my years playing MMOs, I've never known anyone who enjoys playing a game - any game - to do so because they "felt obligated to". They do because they want to. If they didn't enjoy it, they didn't play it - yes, even if they paid for it. It's common sense. Someone who *plays a game* out of some feeling of obligation, and not because they enjoy playing it, seriously needs to re-evaluate how they choose their entertainment.

Wow. This post grew immensly. At any rate, my original opinion still stands.

The game is called FREE REALMS. As in Free, as in not P2P. The items and classes are supposed to be mostly free. Hell, SOE is not the original creator of microtransactions, but from what I have seen of other f2p games, they don't seem to goto this extreme.

The majority of eastern games provide items that boost or make your character god like with exp buffs and health potions. Some of them when bringing this scheme to western shores, lower this to things like costumes, and minor items, while the bulk of things are obatainable through quests or some other premium fee.

Hell, even Dungeons and Dragons Online features weapons, armor, potions, abilities, races and even classes for sale in the shop, but they are also obtainable in game for free. Turbine understands that creating an environment where the in game store is an advantage to be sure, but one that is not a necessity.

Free Realms chose to make the game difficult to play without using the store. Even the p2p model subscription does not provide you with the items necessary to actually have an advantage in the game. That is the crux of the point of the post. Sony is charging money for items, costumes, etc. that the subscription model does not cover. This is pure greed.

I am not saying that Sony has no right to not make money, just that their company practice of the game is modeled towards providing the richest players the ability to have a distinct advantage over others. And with this game being marketed to kids, and where kids are concerned fitting in and being part of something requires kids to emulate each other, which in terms of this game, requires money. Which is the crux of the problems that this game has.

Not to mention it is rather complicated in the may things you can do, buy, sell, quest for, job changes, just too much for the averaage kid or adult to handle. The game of Free Realms is a money-maker with kids and some adults, but treating your customers like bottom feeders is not good business. Remember that SOE customer service is industry-wide known for not caring about their customers.  This particular game is an example of that attitude. The game used to be pleasant to play, but now has grown into a monsterous money making machine.

ya they changed the model from what it was at the start!that is the number one complain player complain about in any game

aika it was global it went national(ipblocked)

freerealm it was free to play now they limited it to lvl 5 etc etc etc

player dont mind rules but putting false rule at start then changing them once player are in is a sure way to get rid of player

its simple adopt a model you can make money with then you stick to it! going in front wihile hidding your main idea is a sure way to get rid of player!

free realm isnt good enough to be worth playing after lvl 5 with their new skeem in my book

earth eternal is just as good without the asle soe like corp skeem!

like i say adopt a model and stick to it .(ya but that will scare customer away)that my friend is what you are paid to do find a solution that is good for corp and for gamer who will pay for it!

Originally posted by Dreathor

 

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Originally posted by fawdown
Well it might not be your favorite, but with almost 9 million active subs,

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What? Where did you pull that number out from?

From a browser and the internet like most people.

If you have ever played the game you would see that you cannot walk anywhere in it without seeing dozens and often hundreds of people around you. It's funny watching a 100+ person snowball fight.   I watch my son play it, and I've never seen anything like it in any other game.  It's a new model for keeping server numbers low and polulation high and being able to switch between them at any time.  Where you see other games with lots of servers that are empty most of the time, with this one it is full of people.  They seem to have gotten it right, because from my experience with WoW, even though FR is geared toward kids, the community is still better.  If it had been anything like the community in WoW I wouldn't have let the kid play it.

Regardless of what people think of SOE, even in games that are a virtual ghost town, they still have a nack for building great communities.

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Originally posted by fawdown

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Originally posted by Dreathor
 

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Originally posted by fawdown
Well it might not be your favorite, but with almost 9 million active subs,

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What? Where did you pull that number out from?

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From a browser and the internet like most people.
 

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My point was it's absurd for the guy to claim there are 9 million paying subscribers. SoE stated they have XX million sign-ups, that is all.

Originally posted by drbaltazar

take eq2 cost 14$/month over 3 month period,wow its what 17 18$ a month.

Your whole post is full of idiocy. However, WoW is $15 a month.. just like pretty much ANY other modern MMO.

Originally posted by drbaltazar

ya they changed the model from what it was at the start!that is the number one complain player complain about in any game

aika it was global it went national(ipblocked)

freerealm it was free to play now they limited it to lvl 5 etc etc etc

player dont mind rules but putting false rule at start then changing them once player are in is a sure way to get rid of player

Yep... they call that 'Bait and Switch'; sell someone something based on specific features, and then change those features after the sale has been made. Not the first time SOE has done this, either. SWG anyone?

When I look at how SOE does business and at some of the decisions they've made over the years, it almost seems like they identify and then deliberately do whatever it is they know would piss off their players.

Freerealms just highlighted the absurdity that is SOE. they actually had a good title for once, for the audience they were targeting, but still found a way to destroy it through greed. This title was a complete bait and switch. Originally, premium content was stuff that might be nice to buy and use, but not necassary to play and enjoy the game. Then, they completely nerfed the price vendors paid for items, so that you could no longer afford the healing potions you need to play with in game currency, forcing people to RMT basics like potions. There was an uproar, SOE promised that the new price changes were a "mistake" and that they would rebalance the economy to make free-to-play viable. However, they never did rebalance things, (I'm wondering if the less greedy devs got fired for objecting to the shift in game design) and actually went on to make further changes that made F2P almost impossible.

I'm glad I waited to see how SOE would screw this game up before I recommended it for neices/nephews and to friends with kids in the target age range. I knew they would screw it up, it's SOE after all, but I have to admit I'm taken aback at just how badly they destroyed this title.

Sony should just NUKE SOE, completely clean house and rebrand it with good people at the helm. In my mind, there is no bigger joke or waste of potential in the game industry than SOE.