Lord of the Rings Online: Improving Game Mechanics

I would like to see more done to personal houses and kin houses.  Maybe kinships can have the option of building their own house and also be able to put many more items up for display(my kin house is full of raid trophies and instance trophies but there are soo many we dont have room for).  Another thing i would like to see is being able to attack while on your horse/goat.  And where the hell are our flying eagle mounts!!!   

I'd like to see Lotro get into the real age of most P2P MMOs and actually have a playable evil side. Not the crappy monster thing, but actual evil races which would bring new life into the dying game, bring a new PvP into the game, and also allow it to remain compeititive against games like WoW and WAR where there are 2 sides.

The game is pretty, but you can only fight PvE so much before it gets boring.

I completely disagree with the article. Mainly because to have such a complex "hardcore" combat mechanics as it is suggesting, then killing 1,000,000 boars needs to be taken out of the game, as making it difficult to kill them would kill the current game. On that note, just take out levels altogether. Sorry, no thanks. The combat is already slow as it is, but having to worry about things like trajectory, wind etc. on my hunter is NOT something I would look forward to. I play the game for story, and exploration and the feeling of being able to kill a mob in 2 seconds(although in LOTRO's current form this can still be tweaked to be a bit faster). Not some strange idea of an FPS crossover.

Same goes with the crafting. While I don't do a lot of crafting in MMOs, I do dabble at least a little bit in each and doing it the way the article suggested, having to worry about actual measurements. NO thanks. Maybe the article poster is a hardcore nut, and that's fine I suppose, someone make him an mmo that he can play but leave the majority of the other games geared to the majority of the playerbase which is NOT hardcore.

Even as a non-pvp'er I too would like to see them expand Pvp into a RvR setup.  LotR and LotRO lore already have goblins, orc's and trolls.  With the addtion of a playable man race you could easily have the 4 evil playable races to balance out the game.  Let their starting areas be south of Mordor or where ever else is in a non-interference area and give them quests etc.... to level up with just like the good guys. 

Introduce either Mordor (not lore I know) or some border regions as RvR open Pvp area's with keeps, capture points etc... and have at it.  Since those area's would probably be controlled by the higher levels, you could also open up some Pvp dungeons based on levels a la DoAC so thoses of any level could have a Pvp area to play through where they could expect to only meet other players within 5? levels of themselves.

For combat in general I would love to see some of the options talked about.  There's a single player game called Mount & Blade which does pretty much all he talks about (without the rolling part).  Kind of a thinking man's combat.  If you charge in holding your sword over your head, the NPC will put his shield up too to block the shot.

I do believe though that it's too late to make changes like these to any existing game since the cries of NGE! NGE! NGE! would instantly be heard.  These types of MAJOR changes would be best done from the ground up in a brand new game.

Combat

I completely disagree with the notion of how great it would be if it worked more like a first person game.  The main reason I like to play MMOs is they are some of the few games that are still based on a die roll mechanic.  If I want to play an FPS, then I'll play an FPS.

Crafting

The key word should be 'useful', not 'complex'.

It seems like both of these were written from the perspective of someone that wants a more niche game for themselves.  The more complex it is and the harder it is for people to play it, the more enjoyable it is for that type of person.  It's like the flood of refuges we are starting to get from WoW.  It never ceases to amaze me how quickly they start in the forums and OOC with all the changes they'd like to see, and they all sound 'really' familiar.

Honestly, the PC market is dwindling as it is, and you all have your PS3s and XBoxs and Wiis, do we really need to turn the few nice remaining games we have into WWF Wife Swap Idol Crysis American Prototype Call of Limbaugh VI?

I also have to completely disagree with virtually the entire article.

I do not think FPS style, twitch based combat has any place whatsoever in MMORPGs. Not only are there a number of technical limitations involved, but more importantly an MMORPG is not supposed to be solely about the combat. "Role playing" is about more than hack and slash, even if far too many players have forgotten that fact. Now, combat systems could be improved in a number of ways, better visuals, more complex options etc - personally I would like to see a focus on more complex and involved encounters that took longer and less emphasis on killing 998 mobs, but that is me.

As for PvP - as much as I love it - NOT EVERY GAME HAS TO BE HARDCORE PVP! LotRO is one of the best PvE games out there, if not the best - so what that its pvp system sucks? LotRO has largely and should continue to ignore and marginalize the pvp side of the game because that is NOT why people are playing it. Could it have been done differently, sure - they could have done an RvR style system and it might have been great, but lots of other games are out there or coming out that offer that.

As for crafting, again I totally disagree. LotRO's crafting system is perhaps "weak" when compared to say pre-NGE SWG, but that's about it. It is vastly better than WoW, AoC, WAR and most others. It might benefit from some of the interactive bits done in EQ2, but  I am not sure the elements in EQ2/Vanguard added much beyond annoyance. In LotRO you can craft useful items in nearly every profession all the way to the end game - frequent crafted gear is the best for many purposes at many levels, hard to get much better than that really. Again, in the "perfect" sandbox game, I can see it being done better and there are certainly things that could be improved in LotRO - more recipes, more consumables, more variety etc, but it is pretty good as is.

Lastly, housing  - yep LoTRO housing could use some work, it's a bit dated. But it remains more useful than any other MMO I have played, having a house is a huge convenience increase that I actually use - instead of just sitting there looking pretty.

 BTW How the heck is this an editorial? Could we please sack this guy and get a LotRO correspondent that actually likes the game? Or at least writes about it,  not his nutty ideas of how to redesign the game from the ground up?

Completely agrees with both ericbelser and asfaraslarry! Couldnt have said it better.

While I too think that the author is far off-base, I do have to say that his target areas are quite valid for a look towards improvement.

I love LotRO and have all my "free people" and "monster players" character slots used up and I do feel that all the mentioned areas need improved, but not drastically replaced.

In crafting, simply providing the ability for players to add optional components to strenthen crafted gear to be better than the original recipe such as:

Scholar's Cloak
Requires: 2x bolt of silk cloth, 1x darkened leather guard, 1x darkened leather binding
Optional 1x Dusty Tail to improve critical success chance

Assuming crit succes, you receive:
Fine Scholar's Cloak
light armour
+12 will
+17 power
+23 fate

However if you we had the ability to add a few of the "optional added components" (my thoughts being vendor bought basics such as a different color "rune" that adds a bit of a stat bases on color like yellow rune for additional armour or red rune for melee crit chance etc) and I added 3 yellow runes then I would get an increased armour version which was improved from 214 armour to 245.

In PvMP, as much as I think a lot of folks would love to level up "creeps" the same as "freeps", I don't see it as needed to make the existing pvp into more of a real, albeit optional, part of the game. Simply dedicating more attention and resources could easily turn the PvMP into a serious drawing factor.

Basic areas of PvMP that should be improved:
1. make more use of the "monster play" status which causes adjustment to free people skills to make them a bit more balanced against monster players. Creeps are not simple npcs and should not ever have to suffer being 1-shotted by rks, hunters or any other class. Nor should creeps have to stand still with a completely greyed out hotbar for 20+ seconds while they are killed thanks to insane crowd control. (say it with me: "crowd control is not pvp!")

2. Reduce lag greatly
(provide options for players to disable ALL sparkly graphical crud that hinders performance, as well as basic class skins that can be shown instead of all the fancy armour. Disable the my.lotro.com polling of the game servers or greatly reduce frequency/optimize it so that it doesn't considerably add to lag.)

3. Treat monster players better than 2nd rate.
(give mailbox, auction, bank etc to them to use the same as freeps)

I completely agree with the disagreement posts. Please don't change LOTRO so drastically that it becomes a whole new game. That's not what we want. Instead, try to focus on making our current game of choice for 2-years now into what it could and should be.

Where to start? Try actually updating the UI like you promised over a year ago so that it's at least on par with standard MMO UIs. Right now, it's well below standard and in need of much love.

And as far as crafting...I loathed EQ2 crafting and that's exactly what he's talking about. No thank you.

Sorry but I would love to see some radical changes in LotRo.  I think its the most boring mmo/combat there is.   Its a push button grind,  pushing buttons to choose whats going to happen instead of using skill to make it happen is what every other Old mmo is about.   Obviously they recognize people are leaving to play the new mmo's that offer some thought and challenge.  They mention mechanics almost similar to aoc with the blocking and weak spots determined by a visual during combat.   Shooting distance taking wind and area hit (headshot) in an mmo might not be possible outside of an instance for mmo's.   The combat system they are suggesting seems very realistic and would be great if they could pull it off.   Im sure they also Iisten to the complaints of newer games being ruined by PVP griefing as well.  I understand I am the minority here but whatever.   LoTrO is just too boring to play right now so I do not play it anymore unless something is good on TV to keep my attention while pushing those buttons.   They do have to do something to make the game more attractive to new subscribers or it will not be worth keeping alive as a company/business decision so everyone loses that plays the game.   Hopefully they listen to the majority of people who will make this game possible to survive.   I dont expect them to satisfy me but I do hope they find something to make the game interesting enough to pick up again.   If I didnt pay for the lifetime subscription thinking lotro would be a game to hold my interest past the break even point I wouldnt care at all.   I wish other games offered that,  I would have saved over twice what I paid in scripts.

I can't wait for a decent fantasy MMO that ditches the MUD-based combat of the past ten years worth of games.

@Shreddi, what?  Planetside was dice-rolling, not skill?  That makes no sense, man.

 They do have to do something to make the game more attractive to new subscribers or it will not be worth keeping alive as a company/business decision so everyone loses that plays the game.

Just as a note, this is not something they have to make changes to accomplish - I have not seen a single report that LotRO is losing subscribers, in fact everything I have seen published talks about them having a steady and slowly increasing playerbase. (Which I might add my in game experience supports - replacement rate of new players slightly outpacing the dropouts - for a 2yr old game, that is a very good place to be at.)

Radical change is the death knell of MMOs; I'm not a blinkered fanboi, there is plenty about LotRO that could be improved/tweaked, but radical change would utterly kill the game. Could PvMP be done better, heck yeah - but it is a marginal element of the game and most players simply do not care about it. You want to talk about radical change, it had better be applied to a new game, not one established and 2yrs old.

I would definitely like to see combat become more action oriented and less reliant on standing there in autoattack and clicking hotkeys; dodging, blocking and manual clicking for attacks and such would add a lot to the combat. Ranged combat should have/need ammo with different types of ammo to soice things up a bit. I could never understand why things went from DDO (being non standard type combat with blocking, dodging and ammo and such) to LoTRO with the same ole same ole combat of auto-attack and click hot keys. Having played DDo when it first hit and then moving onto LotRO when it came out, DDO was obviously the model for what would become LoTRO, but things seemed to regress. Housing itself is sort of an afterthought just thrown in there to appease those taht wanted housing, but housing does not do much at all in the game, housing is nothing more than a little more storage and a place to stick trophies with a weekly maitenance fee attached (well maybe thats what housing is supposed to be after all hehe).

 I have played LotRO faithfully for over two years since the beta, but it is starting to feel stale and repetetive to me. It has become the same ole content grind and raid grind for gear which really gets boring after awhile. you grind out for gear which becomes obsolete when the level cap is raised and then nothing to do but grind for new gear, and everybody ends up having the same gear. If turbine doesn't change this gameplay model soon then I fear that LotRO will continue to decline in subscribers and fun. Indeed, some games like Mortal Online and the new Star Wars MMO are really grabbing my attention and if I end up enjoying one of them more than LotRO, then I will be saying so long digital Middle Earth :(

Hopefully with the Rohan expansion there will be a ton of new combat features mostly dealing with mounted combat, if Rohan hits and there is no mounted combat and they don't add in some sort of legendary item system for mounts, or at least give players unique and customizable mount systems (sort of like how you can outfit your mounts in Vanguard), then the Rohan expansion will b e a bust.

I also disagree with a number of the comments on combat.  This is a D&D-esque game in terms of the combat mechanic.  I want to play a D&D-esque MMO.  If I wanted to play an FPS MMO, I would play that instead.  The described changes to hunters would make the game incredibly difficult to play.  Has the writer ever tried shooting a real bow to understand how diificult the proposals would make the game?  And good luck with dodging arrows.

However, mounted combat is something I hope to see in the game at some point.  Rohan expansion anyone?  RvR would also be good in the right context - but the War hasn't reached that stage yet.

Overall, I'm surprised that this person is the LOTRO correspondent.  It sounds like they should be playing some other game.  And I completely disagree that there is not enough incentive to continue playing the game once you reach the level cap.  There's tonnes of stuff to do - if nothing else, get in a good guild and have fun with them.

But, yeah, crafting is a grind :)  In some ways that can be good though because you can set things running to make what you want (for a number of professions at least) and go and do something else for a few minutes.  This is fine for me for the most part but I can relate to some people wanting to get more into crafting than that.

What I meant by Planetside being dice rolling was when I played it the rockets for example would shoot crooked 4 out of 5 times.  The other guns were so inaccurate team mates would have to run in front of others to hit the enemy causing negative points to teamates who accidentally shot them while doing so.   Planetside had such cool large areas to stage a long range battle but every battle ended up so close together it resembled a melee fight.  Maybe they improved the weapons and aiming in ps since I played it.   I was expecting it to play like fps and hit what you aim at even at close range.  I only played it about 6 monts from  comming out and only maxed a couple characters so maybe its changed.   I followed the game years before its release when it was originally going to be set in an escape from NY scenerio,  then they changed that but still had my hopes up.  I  was expecting too much.  Was too used to other FPS and accurate weapons that hit long distance when you aimed and missed when you didnt.  I miss a lot in fps but so what its not my life.   Do you play PS now?   Did they change much in that department? 

Originally posted by ericbelser

 They do have to do something to make the game more attractive to new subscribers or it will not be worth keeping alive as a company/business decision so everyone loses that plays the game.

Just as a note, this is not something they have to make changes to accomplish - I have not seen a single report that LotRO is losing subscribers, in fact everything I have seen published talks about them having a steady and slowly increasing playerbase. (Which I might add my in game experience supports - replacement rate of new players slightly outpacing the dropouts - for a 2yr old game, that is a very good place to be at.)

Radical change is the death knell of MMOs; I'm not a blinkered fanboi, there is plenty about LotRO that could be improved/tweaked, but radical change would utterly kill the game. Could PvMP be done better, heck yeah - but it is a marginal element of the game and most players simply do not care about it. You want to talk about radical change, it had better be applied to a new game, not one established and 2yrs old.

Someone at work was asking me about that very fact can you please let me know where they write up the reports you are talking about so I can forward to him.    How many games did go out of business because the subscribers were not holding it up and changing things could have made the difference?  LotRo better have a lot of long time subscribers,  They offered life time subscriptions so those will be for ever.   They did lower the rate which could be a signal they need to raise money due to their current base is not doing it for them.  The new price has a very short payback so that is kind of scary.  That money spent is gone and no more monthly to rely on, oh, unless they attract new ones.   Anyway,  If you could post were to get the info you read it would be appreciated.   I dont care if they radically change it.   Yes I would like it (only because I play for free now, otherwise The game would be deleted long ago) but like I said I hope they satisfy the majority it takes to keep the game alive.   Thanks.
 

For the post worried about calculating wind resistance or string draw to shoot a bow in this mmo.  Please dont worry,  doubt they are going to make it that difficult.    They really cant in large population games.   Thats why fps games that are twich based aim without that kind of variable cap the number of players per server.   Any slight lag or band effect would blow that effect completely,  they cant make all hunting instance based either.   

Originally posted by Shreddi

What I meant by Planetside being dice rolling was when I played it the rockets for example would shoot crooked 4 out of 5 times.  The other guns were so inaccurate team mates would have to run in front of others to hit the enemy causing negative points to teamates who accidentally shot them while doing so.   Planetside had such cool large areas to stage a long range battle but every battle ended up so close together it resembled a melee fight.  Maybe they improved the weapons and aiming in ps since I played it.   I was expecting it to play like fps and hit what you aim at even at close range.  I only played it about 6 monts from  comming out and only maxed a couple characters so maybe its changed.   I followed the game years before its release when it was originally going to be set in an escape from NY scenerio,  then they changed that but still had my hopes up.  I  was expecting too much.  Was too used to other FPS and accurate weapons that hit long distance when you aimed and missed when you didnt.  I miss a lot in fps but so what its not my life.   Do you play PS now?   Did they change much in that department? 

Ah yeah, I know what you mean. Though, honestly, that was mostly to do with the cone of fire ;) You had to manage it constantly, or you'd get bad results.  It also depended which faction you played, and when it was relative to the release of the game (the best time IMO was early on, before they nerfed most stuff to uselessness).  I stopped playing quite a while ago, but when I did play I played from release for a good year or two, with forays back into every once in a while.  I think I have 3-year service merits on my oldest chars now.

If you played 6mo after it was released, that's probably the issue there.  They heavily nerfed all factions weapons into mediocrity shortly after release, due to balance whining.

Originally posted by teuchy

 The described changes to hunters would make the game incredibly difficult to play.  Has the writer ever tried shooting a real bow to understand how diificult the proposals would make the game?  And good luck with dodging arrows.

However, mounted combat is something I hope to see in the game at some point.  Rohan expansion anyone?  RvR would also be good in the right context - but the War hasn't reached that stage yet.

Now I don't understand the instanced vs open area combat comment someone else made concerning archery and I too think a total RL physic's style would not be fun in anyway (way too much like real work), but the changes described are doable with the combat engine picking up some/most of the slack.

While I can't hit the side of a barn with M&B archery, my 14yr old is a wiz at it and prefers using bows as his weapon of choice, including during mounted combat.   Pretty much the only area's you would need to handle would be aiming and distance (part of aiming) to take into account arrow drop.  He's got it wired down so as to score head shots on targets I can't even see.

For dodging arrow shots that's actually one of the easier items.  #1 would be to add a 'block' feature to shield use and just take the shot on your shield.  #2 is to watch for when they release and then just zig.  I think there may be a basic form of this in LotRO now as I seem to miss NPC's more with my javelin's when they get up and start to run towards me going off on a tanget vice coming straight in.

Mounted combat would be amazing and provide a pretty big money sink as you have to replace your mount.  M&B uses differnet kinds of horses (riding, light and heavy combat etc...) all with they're own stat's and in combat a mount can be lamed or killed.  Lamed can be fixed but killed would cause you to have to purchase another one.

FPS type combat would ruin the feel of the game. Plus how would this work with teh prevelent stat system used in nearly every MMO . No we have TF2, and UT for FPS action. However I would like more strategy in combat, and certainly LOTRO combat is slow and use a bit of spicing up. Games such as Aion are trying minor techniques to add a bit more interactivity and excitement to combat.

I also agree that crafting should be useful, not unique. I enjoy making useful items for myself and kin mates.

The author is way off!

LotRO with M&B's combat would be freakin orgasmic.  There's nothing like the thrill of a big combat in M&B.  Also, even someone moderately skilled at archery or other ranged weaponry is extremely deadly.  It's much easier to kill someone when not constrained to a dated (by over a decade now) turn based, MUD-derived (and most importantly, hellaciously boring and trite) combat system, and given the freedom to aim and loose as many arrows as you can accurately.

Originally posted by Shreddi

What I meant by Planetside being dice rolling was when I played it the rockets for example would shoot crooked 4 out of 5 times.  The other guns were so inaccurate team mates would have to run in front of others to hit the enemy causing negative points to teamates who accidentally shot them while doing so.   Planetside had such cool large areas to stage a long range battle but every battle ended up so close together it resembled a melee fight.  Maybe they improved the weapons and aiming in ps since I played it.   I was expecting it to play like fps and hit what you aim at even at close range.  I only played it about 6 monts from  comming out and only maxed a couple characters so maybe its changed.   I followed the game years before its release when it was originally going to be set in an escape from NY scenerio,  then they changed that but still had my hopes up.  I  was expecting too much.  Was too used to other FPS and accurate weapons that hit long distance when you aimed and missed when you didnt.  I miss a lot in fps but so what its not my life.   Do you play PS now?   Did they change much in that department? 

Planetside is 100% FPS. There are NO dice rolls. No matter how many times you want to say it. What you are confusing is the cone of fire system, something all FPS have to a point to simulate recoil (some, move your entire arm and gun). My guess, you just run and gun, and never learned to control the COF.

If you hold down the fire on any automatic gun, your shots will start to go ever more wild.

If anything MMOs have become too complex and too dependant on technology.

They need to go back to the basics, not try and make things more complex.

Leave FPS combat to FPS games.

Leave tedius and boring crafting with dozens of steps to real life and management games like the Sims.

These are MMORPGs. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games.

The more "complex" and "action oriented" these games become, the more they have to use instancing and zoning and other systems that take away from the Massively part.

The more "complex" and "action oriented" these games become, the more they become "niche" titles for the elitist MMO "hardcore" which takes away thousands, if not millions from the Multiplayer part.

The more I have to worry about managing resources and min/maxing my stats and the more I have to focus on things like wind speed and angles to my target, the less I am able to feel like I am Role Playing and the more I feel like I'm working or doing homework.

Just give me games that are fun to play, easy to get into, yet take skill and are challenging to master. Give me games that focus on the massively multiplayer part, the community and the vast openness of the world rather then spending all my time worrying about stats and managing this and that and doing  homework.

Too many games and too many gamers don't realize that the thing their MMOs are missing isn't complexity, there is plenty of that in modern MMOs...

What they are missing is the fun. The adventure. The sense of discovery and wonder and camradiere and competition that comes from playing with and against other people in a massive online world.

No they are more focused on min/maxing their stats and finding the most efficient route to get the best loot and it's really quite sad what this genre has become.

Bear in mind that, relatively speaking, LOTRO has an older, less-hardcore player base than, say, WoW.  I'm thinking that most of us would be in the "can't hit the side of the barn" group rather than being bow-masters like your son. :)  I agree your example would be more workable though (especially compared to the author's).  I could see something like the mechanic used in Deus Ex as well.  For example, it was hard to aim the sniper rifle until you put points into that skill (it wobbled around all over the place and timing your headshots took patience).

The dodging arrows concept seems like a move away from realism to me.  Maybe if we were all playing in the Matrix (bye, bye Matrix Online) we could dodge arrows but, realistically, how many people do you think can dodge a real arrow shot with a good degree of accuracy?  I could see blindly ducking/dodging - or cowering behind your shield - but what would realistic chances of success be?  I know MMO mobs often telegraph their moves but how often would you see an arrow coming in real-life?  And if you ducked early, the archer would just sit and wait until you "unducked" - or shoot you in the shins :)

But, overall, combat could be made more involving.  Allowing more movement during combat would be one way of doing it.  My main point was just that the authors suggestion seemed to be miles away from what most players want.

Combat: There are some mmo’s in developer that are trying to use a modified fps/dice system. I am interested to see how it works but I don’t have high expectations. Plus I don’t think I would like an overly fps combat system in a mmorpg. Elves, dwarves, humans, and hobbits all jumping around like idiots doing barrel rolls all over the place would just look silly. I think AoC directional system has some potential. Each different attack/direction would be better or worse against different attack/direction. The way AoC did it wasn’t very user friendly but I think it has some potential.

Crafting: A lot the individual component for creating great crafting system are here but no one has taken the time to pull them all together into a single mmo. LOTRO crafting is good but not great. It lacks the variety in components and end products. It lacks manual input that could affect the quality of your output. A big problem that all mmos have is the materials are usually a lot more expensive then the end product it creates. With drops and quest rewards being a dime a dozen and no item destruction there is such a surplus of items in all mmos that most don’t wastes their time buying crafted gear with the exception of the few end game bones that crafters get. Plus resource gathering has taken such an unrealistic approach that gathering the required material is usually a bigger part of crafting then the actual crafting.

Housing: UO’s customization, Horizons need to gather raw material to actually build you own place, and LOTRO/AoC neighborhood zone hybrid would be an amazing combination.
 

Combat
I would love to try twitch-based combat like AoC's angles of attack/defence -- but it would have to be LOTRO II , not a risk taken with the LOTRO that we know and love.

I would love to have the realism of ranged attacks (including for LMs and RKs) having to negotiate the risk of hitting your own side instead of unrealistically passing straight through them. Area Damage should similarly affect your own side, requiring cunning tactical deployment and team coordination instead of just being a gift.
   But there would be too many crybabies from all those people who'd resent losing their current unrealistic and unfair advantage, so I'm not holding my breath.

OP:> 
...I would like all of you to take the time and write in this thread what you would like to see done...

I love LOTRO how it is but, hey, the guy asked!

Movement
Somehow I find it easy to suspend disbelief and accept all of the above as part of the game, just like monsters that respawn out of thin air, and the way my unique world-saving hero status is actually shared by everyone else I ever meet.

In the two years of play, one of the areas that most annoys me is just the straightforward moving around the world -- mine and everyone else's. 

How stupid is it that everyone can highjump their own height, land on their feet and immediately do it again -- to the point that they careen across the landscape bouncing like Tom Bombadil on springs?!  Make it cost Power so people don't do it in hostile areas, and ive everyone a 5 jump limit that takes 60 secs to cooldown.

And make going round things be preferable to flinging yourself off a cliff.  It's one thing to have a mechanism to prevent people frmo dying unnecessarily just for misjudging the environment, but it should cost you Morale as well as just a movement penalty.

And it's just wrong that everyone streaks along the shortest lines from A to B, such that the artistically winding roads just guarantee that no one follows them.  Give people a Hustle factor of 10-20% for being on a road.

Housing

The neighbourhoods are barren wastelands that happen to have houses in.  The idea of encouraging a community buzz and friendship with your neighbours just fell on its face.

Why is there so much empty space?  (After the chests -- yay!) the second greatest thing about Houses is the teleport.  But the distance to the exit from a neighbourhood, coupled with those exits' positioning in the world, means that you teleport home and map back out again.  This is really weak.

I think crafters should be able to buy forges for self-repair of kit, and shops to where people can buy crafted gear on order instead of just via the global Auction House.  There has to be some functionality in there beyond the storage and the reduced-cost suppliers in order to give people a reason to ever come into these areas.

Well that was just off the top of my head in a spare few minutes...  Am I alone on these things?

Cheers,
--Os.

I have to say one of the ley things most MMO's have done wrong, and this has been pointed out, is put levels in games.

The departure from skill based to level based changed everything and not for the good. You never cared about how many things you had to kill when you were going for 100 Swordsmanship in Ultima Online. Even in OLD SWG it was skill based and you cared a lot less about how long it took or what it took. That aside I think some of the ideas mentioned have been tried and failed but the key is to keep thinking and keep putting ideas out there.

COMBAT-

FPS style combat exist in D&D Online and its a failure, similar things were tried in Age of Conan too and it also failed. The die roll mechanic works but people need to start putting more care into the quests your performing so you dont have to kill 1,000,000,000 boars. It could be improved upon by giving people various routes of skills to choose from and different animations or better yet have a few 1000 animations that as players we can string together to give yourself a more custom feel to those skills you use.

PVP/PVE

I think too much emphasis is put on PVP but that is my personal view.  I find there are 3 types of players: Pvp'rs, Pve'rs and Players. I am a player I will play a game and try all the different aspects of the game taking no ones opinion but my own. Pvp'rs only care about pvp and fighting each other...I think it is a serious statement about people in general that we feel the need to fight each other even in an enviroment designed for fun. Pve'rs are very different maybe they just like to level, or just like to craft, or maybe they just like to socialize whatever it is that is why they play. I think PVP is a needed component for a game to be succesful financially but I think it needs to be made fun with a Game system to it.

CRAFTING-

This is my STRONGEST area discussion because contrary to what some people think crafting does need to be more complex and I will explain why. But I will note it needs to be a gradual increase in complexity.

For people like me I am a crafter. We craft that is what we do.

I will give an example of a bad crafting system and why first.

World of Warcraft has a horrible crafting system, why?

Because if I have a 100 Blacksmithy and make a dagger and my friend has a 400 Blacksmithy and makes the same dagger they are IDENTICAL. No difference all of his months of extra work has made him no more skilled at making that dagger than myself. No rewards for his efforts. Another reason it is horrible is there is absolutely no chance of failure you cannot fail at crafting so there is no challenge. And the third and final reason why, because you have to become a skilled combatant just to craft. I do not see why you cannot craft to max skill from level 1.

Now a good crafting system would have a gradual increase in complexity, use a large assortment of materials, that you can use and would have a system integrated allowing you to customize the look of the item as well as its stats. Give each item a base pool of stats and the higher your skill the more you can move those numbers around. So by the time you were at maximum skill you could completely remake the concept of the item. Using my above example if I had 100 skill and made a dagger maybe I could change the hilt on it, move the maximum damage up some and lower the minimum. My friend who was a master could make the dagger and pick the hilt, its colors, the blade pick the color, Maybe even Name the thing, and make the max/min damage exactly what he wanted within the limits of the item and MAYBE have a chance to imbue it with some magical effect just from his sheer skill.

ANother thing missing is the repair factor if your playing WOW and your a master Hammer smith why can you not repair at least your own Hammer? I mean does your character skip that day of training or what?

Thats my 2 cents.

Originally posted by Shreddi

Someone at work was asking me about that very fact can you please let me know where they write up the reports you are talking about so I can forward to him.   

Not the easiest things to find since the best, http://www.mmogchart.com/charts/ has basically stopped reporting (but they are still the best historical reference around)  They have LotRO at 150-200k in early 2008.

Great read on the entire topic from later 2008, http://t-machine.org/index.php/2008/11/23/predicting-player-figures-for-any-online-game-or-mmo/

Sadly. Neither Turbine nor Codemasters release subscription numbers. So really pretty much everyone is guessing and BSing, (myself included) based on sparse interviews, 3rd party sites and the "feel" from lots of forums and unofficial posts. Jeffrey Steefel has hinted in numerous interviews/articles that the games "audience" has been growing steadily but slowly.
Also,  as that article mentions, you can try and draw some conclusions from www.xfire.com, but not with any concrete validity. (Although the generally static Xfire numbers can be used to argue it's not dropping at least)

This http://www.mmodata.net/ is an attempt to continue the earlier mmogchart data forward.

Most interestingly and just recently, this little gem has popped up:http://middleearthadventurer.blogspot.com/2009/03/server-population-compilation.html

http://status.warriorsofnargathrond.com/?numbers=yes

It is probable that this isn't actually tracking active log ins, speculation currently seems to favor it showing total number of log ins that day or something similar - still it provides some useful base for analysis.

I know some people *like* the grind-encouraging, turn-based, dated and boring MUD-derived combat system, but I personally can't stand it.  It quickly becomes simply a matter of arranging your actions in the best order in a hotbar, then pressing the hotbar keys in order repeatedly until your enemy has died.  It has no strategy, it takes no skill, it's not even amusing or fun to watch.  It's boring and trite and MMOG developers and players alike have the misconception that it's the only type of gameplay possible in an MMOG.  It's ridiculous.  Practically every MMOG in the past decade has been made with the exact same combat system, with minor variations.

[quote]

COMBAT-

FPS style combat exist in D&D Online and its a failure, similar things were tried in Age of Conan too and it also failed.

[/quote]

Neither game used FPS style combat actually.  AoC used a target-based*, turn-based dice rolling system, which just happened to be fast paced.  There was nothing FPS style about it.  DDO allowed you to aim ranged based weaponry, but melee attacks were still rolled with to-hit dice etc.  So, no, you don't know what you're talking about, sorry.

* Target-based = Regardless of the physical arc of a weapon, you will only ever hit the enemy you have selected.

* Turn-based = I do not mean "turn-based" in the sense that JRPGs are turn-based, but none the less, actions happened in clearly delineated turns, with pauses in between (based on numbers in your character sheet).

* Dice rolling = In AoC, the result of a given attack was based SOLELY on the result of a die roll with input parameters based on numbers from your character.  Further, physically moving out of range or the line of an attack has no effect on whether or not it will hit.

If any 1 of those things is true about an MMOG, it cannot be said to be "FPS style" in any sense, and all three were true about AoC.  The "directional attack" stuff was a thin facade, and meant nothing in terms of actual combat gameplay.  In fact, AoC used the same basic MUD-derived combat as almost every MMOG for the past decade.

I think some others mentioned it, but the real problem that I see in MOST games, crafting-wise isn't the diversity or complexity of the crafting itself. But in how we bring the goods to market.

We need tools for selling AND buying, for placing orders and posting "willing to make..." notices.

I'd like to see what things have actually SOLD for, not just the prices people are offering them for.

It's be really great if I could log in, and see three notices for people who want to buy a hand crafted spear, I could make a few spears from materials on hand, fill the orders, and get to adventuring. If I didn't like the price they were offering I could just post up some spears at a higher price, but if the daily average (or whatever) is significantly lower than what I want, maybe I won't make any at all.

Thanks very much for those links Ericbelzer.  appreciate it much.

Osric_of_O:
---------------
I love the idea for the "hustle" bonus when traveling via roads instead of cross country.

Furthermore, I constantly find myself wondering why on (Middle)Earth Turbine feels the need to make movement so generally slow in the first place.
If they just made it to where the base run-speed for all characters was 125% of current (matching Warden and Captain speed buffs) then it would help greatly with making the game feel a bit faster.
And for those who are not aware, the base speed really is "run speed" even though it feels like walking.
Hit the "Insert" button and see what Turbine made the "walk speed" and see if you think of any reason for the "walk speed" existing at all.

Housing/Crafting:
---------------
I love the idea of making it so that you could have a "vendor" or "order board" in the housing instances so that players could post "want ads" for crafted gear they would like to purchase, or crafters could post "offers" to make gear.
That would give some benefits to crafting and the nearly unused housing.

The idea of being able to make the same item better based on craft expertise is wonderful as well.
Even simply making a natural crit chance increase based on craft mastery would be a good start.
If I am a Surpreme Master Weaponsmith and I craft an apprentice level dagger, I should have a base crit chance of 50% automatically.

I'm sorry, but a lot of the things mentioned in this article have been done and perfected. The game was called Starwars Galaxies (Pre NGE). That game had everything a player could want to have, and of course things could be tweaked to make gameplay better, but the game was just amazing.

The game had massive planets/maps, so at no point was an area cluttered, but even more players were in control. Your players could create an entire town, houses can be placed at will anywhere you wanted. Everything in game was created by another character, resources gathered by another character.. and in the essence of weapons, armor, and food buffs, all depended on the quality of their resources; which increased or decreased value.

The game wasn't really based on quests, quests were just something to give you a couple credits and some xp, but the game just let you live in the Starwars Galaxy, and actually be a part of everything.

Unfortunately not everyone shares my love for the game, but it's the only game that had so many things right, but the developers trying to "think outside the box" ruined it to dumb the game down, and instead lost millions of subscribers.

Anyway, as far as Lord of the Rings. It's the only other MMO I've been able to enjoy for any period of time aside from SWG. Though combat became very very repetitive, and relying on groups to get quests completed is a good thing but got old fast. Housing is an absolute disgrace, and storage/crafting/etc was just not very well done.

I don't know why players can't trade weapons that they've equipped, I don't know how many weapons I had to just trash just because I outgrew it, but no one else could use... and it's really annoying when your Grand Master Weaponsmith makes crappier weapons than quest/loot found weapons... and the whole "Legendary" weapons is a big pile of crap.

People love to customize their own stuff, and make it their own. Giving it names, giving it it's own distinctive look, and having it be one of the rarest, baddest thing ever. Improving this game would take a lot, because as of right now it's an awesome looking game, but it just lacks in so many ways as stated above.

Hard to understand how a game built in 1999? had more free roaming than a game built in 2005+

I know this game took a lot of it's cues from World of Warcraft, still not sure how that game is so popular but that's beyond me, but it's type of game has the ability to be really great.

Edit: To expand on house customization/storage... To go back to SWG my house was bigger than probably most Guild houses in LORTO, and could hold up to 500 items, and any item found within the game could be placed inside the house anywhere I wanted. So if I found a broken sword, I could put it on the wall, ceiling, floor, flying in the air, whatever I wanted. I think I had a fireplace made out of a table, mechanic tool box, some torches, and some other items, all mixed together and the end result was actually quite pleasing.. I also had some old beat up armor suits displayed, a huge dragon skull, so many things... Some of you may remember if you played the game back in the day, how good it was.. 

An interesting debate. I played LOTRO from launch for quite a while on and off.

Personally, I found the combat was one of the more lacking areas of the game and is probably the main reason why I doubt I'll return. While I think a full FPS would be a step too far - almost certainly alienating the majority of existing subscribers (NGE anyone?) perhaps less drastic changes could go a long way to making combat more interesting. Active dodging/blocking certainly, less reliance on a continually chaining different buttons with little variation and more on timing, positioning etc. 

As an example, DDO's combat feels much more interesting/exciting. The differences are small, but I always felt the combat in DDO was just more fun. I don't play either anymore btw, so I'm not trying to bang the drum for DDO or anything. There's plenty of other combat systems that are arguably better, though ultimately it's personal taste.

I can't imagine them not releasing fully playable Orcs etc, though I'd expect it to probably be with the release of a major battlefield. If it's well implemented they could easily double the subs.

Originally posted by IronHydin

I constantly find myself wondering why on (Middle)Earth Turbine feels the need to make movement so generally slow in the first place.
 

To play devils advocate, travel is already unrealistically fast in the game - mostly because they've shrunk the various areas down.  Run from Bree to Rivendell and time it.  Then go back and look at how long that trip took in the books.

However, realistically, the reason for the run speed is to make it advantageous for people to buy a horse and/or use stable routes.  This acts as a money sink and helps them control the economy.  Although, I guess they could raise the horse speed when they raised the run speed - but that might create game stability/frame rate issues.

I completely disagree with your concept of combat.  If you want that much control go play a FPS, they are designed that way.  I much rather play a MMO where my lack of quick reactions doesn't doom me in a fight.  I think you will find only a small minority agreeing with you on this one.

As to crafting, I agree with you.  Adding chance and skill in to crafting is very important.  Games that have strict formulas that do not vary with the crafters skill and chance have doomed themselves to mediocrity in this arena.

personally i think the ideas mentioned would make for a more exciting and mature game over the existing gamestyle (i'm not a hardcore mmorpger but i find the 'wow clone' games incredibly boring and extremely child orientated)

it would also mean changing lotro into a completely different game which is not something i would agree, not  without the consent of their existing playerbase anyway

hey Menacewithin,  Are there still a lot of people playing SWG?   did they upgrade the graphics?   I was surprised when I clicked on the population link  for lotro (thanks again) how over 800k are online the 2x I had time to check.  I must be on the wrong server but no big deal.    Lotro graphics are beutiful when I check the game out.    Am curious to know if SWG did anything with theirs.  It was a cool game for its time your right.   Too many other mmos came out to compete with it.  I have a tendacy to check out more than I should overlooking some and forgeting how good some were.  coh/v is still great for an old game,  very unique and constantly changing.  People are talking about ddo combat style?  I played the game for the first month it came out, still own it.  Did they change much since then or did I just overlook (probably forgot) the combat system?  thanks.

While its good to keep discussions like these in open conversation, I have to point out that rarely does the voice of the satisfied gamer receive any substantial represenation.

I for one have been enjoying LotRO for over a year now with very few complaints. In fact, I belong to a kinship of mature, selfless people that are quite satisfied with the game overall and hardly have a cross word to say about it. We have discussions about bugs or game mechanics that we think may be improved upon, but my kin-mates are happy. We really enjoy the game.

Now what contrasts may there be between our enjoyable experience and your unenjoyable experiences? Personally, I think it boils down to one very important maxim: You get out of it only what you bring to it.

Straight up - this is one of the lost lessons of our civilisation. With any task, job, project, game, hobby, craft, relationship, etc., you can only expect to receive that which you brought to it, within reason of course.

Insofar as the game you happen to be playing at the moment is concerned, improvements can almost always be made. Knowledge is aggregate, after all, and hind-sight allows you and I a chance to play the critic. But as for my enjoyment in the world of Saul Zaentz- *ahem* Tolkien, I cannot complain over-much. The only other place I'd rather be adventuring with a hobbit is found within the space between the type on the pages contained within but only a handfull of books.

~kinudig?

Combat:

Change it to a twitch based FPS, or some abortion of a hybrid system where you have to aim manually but your stats still affect whether you hit or not....no thanks.  LoTRO has fairly strategic combat for a turn based system.  Play up something other than a Hunter or a Champion and you'd be aware of that.  And why is LoTRO being called out on this, instead of WoW, WAR, EQ, EQ II...and hell every other MMO that has turn based combat?

Crafting:

I happen to like the crafting a great deal.  It lets you make great gear without being too much of a horrific grind.  See WoW for how not to do crafting.  See launch WAR for how to have a crafting system that sucks so badly that whoever designed it hould be taken outside and shot.  The fact that you can hunt up rare ingredients to increase your chances of making a superior product (or that it's even possible to crit items in the first place) already puts the crafting in LoTRO ahead of 90% of MMOs. 

I do agree that it would be nice to be able to craft trully unique items, or at least modify the stats on end products to a greater degree than "normal" vs "crit." However, again, I'm not sure why LoTRO is being called out on this. EQ II, EVE, and a few other MMOs have better crafting. But really, not many do in my experience. I see it as one of the strengths of the game.

Housing:

It's nice that LoTRO at least has housing.  Decorating my house is a fun side game. However, it's one of the most basic systems on the market (unless you count numerous MMOs that have no housing at all).  It also really bugs me that we can't free form place items.  This is one area where LoTRO does need real improvement.

I do not want to "dodge and block and roll" when in combat.  If liked that kind of thing, I'd already be playing an FPS, which I am not.    I certainly hope the OP does not get enough backing to ruin this wonderful game!

Originally posted by Yeebo

Combat:

Change it to a twitch based FPS, or some abortion of a hybrid system where you have to aim manually but your stats still affect whether you hit or not....no thanks.  LoTRO has fairly strategic combat for a turn based system.Don't take this the wrong way but may i ask where is the strategy? you point, click then press a couple of buttons to set of special skills, if you fail a quest, get defeated etc. there is nothing you can do different next time or is this just purely in comparison to wow, eq2 etc?  Play up something other than a Hunter or a Champion and you'd be aware of that.Classes i setteld on where hunter, lore-master and guardian and din't really see any difference in them outside the starter lvls  And why is LoTRO being called out on this, instead of WoW, WAR, EQ, EQ II...and hell every other MMO that has turn based combat?maybe the guy is a lotr fan

Originally posted by Karahandras

Originally posted by Yeebo

Combat:

Change it to a twitch based FPS, or some abortion of a hybrid system where you have to aim manually but your stats still affect whether you hit or not....no thanks.  LoTRO has fairly strategic combat for a turn based system.Don't take this the wrong way but may i ask where is the strategy? you point, click then press a couple of buttons to set of special skills, if you fail a quest, get defeated etc. there is nothing you can do different next time or is this just purely in comparison to wow, eq2 etc?  Play up something other than a Hunter or a Champion and you'd be aware of that.Classes i setteld on where hunter, lore-master and guardian and din't really see any difference in them outside the starter lvls  And why is LoTRO being called out on this, instead of WoW, WAR, EQ, EQ II...and hell every other MMO that has turn based combat?maybe the guy is a lotr fan

 

IMHO, how and when you click those skills introduces the strategy - particularly those skills with a longer timer.  As a guardian who mostly plays in a fellowship setting (currently doing radiance runs), I need to manage aggro constantly.  If I choose poorly in what skills to click when, it can make a big difference to whether or not we are successful.  If I don't keep stuff off the minstrel, she dies and we'll probably wipe.  Likewise, if she doesn't keep me alive, she'll probably be the next target once I'm down and we'll probably wipe.  Also, due to the way the instances are structured, there's a lot of strategy in how you run and complete each instance.  So - if you do get defeated - there's often plenty you can do differently the next time.

Find a good kinship and then find a group of friends within that kinship that you like to play regularly with.  That is what will make the game fun for you in the long run.  I've been playing LOTRO since beta.  I play on 2 nights a week with a great fellowship.  It's those people and the fun we have that keeps me playing.

Finally, from what I've heard, there's more strategy/tactics involved in playing a warden due to the gambit mechanism.  To some extent, the attunement mechanism for runekeepers also introduces some strategy.  My warden and runekeeper are lowbies though, so I can't comment personally.

Full disclosure - I have never played another MMO and I really like LOTRO (I have a lifetime membership).  So long as there are people in LOTRO that I enjoy playing with, I don't see me stopping playing it (altho Bioware's SW MMO looks tempting).  I have played FPSs extensively though and would not want to see that mechanic introduced in LOTRO.

Originally posted by Karahandras

Originally posted by Yeebo

Combat:

Change it to a twitch based FPS, or some abortion of a hybrid system where you have to aim manually but your stats still affect whether you hit or not....no thanks.  LoTRO has fairly strategic combat for a turn based system.Don't take this the wrong way but may i ask where is the strategy? you point, click then press a couple of buttons to set of special skills, if you fail a quest, get defeated etc. there is nothing you can do different next time or is this just purely in comparison to wow, eq2 etc?  Play up something other than a Hunter or a Champion and you'd be aware of that.Classes i setteld on where hunter, lore-master and guardian and din't really see any difference in them outside the starter lvls  And why is LoTRO being called out on this, instead of WoW, WAR, EQ, EQ II...and hell every other MMO that has turn based combat?maybe the guy is a lotr fan

 

I meant purely in comparison to other MMOs with turn based combat (WoW, EQ II, ect. as you say).  That should have been pretty clear from the last line of my post. 

And if you really couldn't tell any difference in the gameplay between

1. a  fairly simple single target DPS class with limited crowd control abilities

2.  a tank with two different primary combo chains that are activated by different reactives and where the combo chains have switch points leading to different outcomes (for example a high threat attack or a self heal off of a block activated chain). 

3. and a class that in parties has to manage a pet as well as decide whether to heal, cure, DPS, debuff, stun targets, or hand out power buffs (and really needs to keep on top of all of them to be working at full potential).

...I would suggest that you didn't get far enough to see what these classes really can do, or that I very badly misinterpreted what you meant.  For example, as I recall at low levels Gaurdians don't have a single combo chain, much less two reactive ones with branch points.   The complexity in LoTRO ramps up very slowly, it's just as dead simple as most turn based MMOs at low levels (and remains so for some classes even at high levels). 

In any case, I do not think the combat in LoTRO would be imrpoved in the slighest by moving away from the turn based model.  Changing the combat so drastically this late in the games life would be an absolutely enourmous NGE style f up.

Originally posted by teuchy

Originally posted by Karahandras

Originally posted by Yeebo

Combat:

Change it to a twitch based FPS, or some abortion of a hybrid system where you have to aim manually but your stats still affect whether you hit or not....no thanks.  LoTRO has fairly strategic combat for a turn based system.Don't take this the wrong way but may i ask where is the strategy? you point, click then press a couple of buttons to set of special skills, if you fail a quest, get defeated etc. there is nothing you can do different next time or is this just purely in comparison to wow, eq2 etc?  Play up something other than a Hunter or a Champion and you'd be aware of that.Classes i setteld on where hunter, lore-master and guardian and din't really see any difference in them outside the starter lvls  And why is LoTRO being called out on this, instead of WoW, WAR, EQ, EQ II...and hell every other MMO that has turn based combat?maybe the guy is a lotr fan

 

 

IMHO, how and when you click those skills introduces the strategy - particularly those skills with a longer timer.  As a guardian who mostly plays in a fellowship setting (currently doing radiance runs), I need to manage aggro constantly.  If I choose poorly in what skills to click when, it can make a big difference to whether or not we are successful.  If I don't keep stuff off the minstrel, she dies and we'll probably wipe.  Likewise, if she doesn't keep me alive, she'll probably be the next target once I'm down and we'll probably wipe.  Also, due to the way the instances are structured, there's a lot of strategy in how you run and complete each instance.  So - if you do get defeated - there's often plenty you can do differently the next time.I get you, also timing becomes more important when fighting multiple enemies

Find a good kinship and then find a group of friends within that kinship that you like to play regularly with.  That is what will make the game fun for you in the long run.  I've been playing LOTRO since beta.  I play on 2 nights a week with a great fellowship.  It's those people and the fun we have that keeps me playing.

Finally, from what I've heard, there's more strategy/tactics involved in playing a warden due to the gambit mechanism.  To some extent, the attunement mechanism for runekeepers also introduces some strategy.  My warden and runekeeper are lowbies though, so I can't comment personally.I left just b4 mom came out so can't comment either

Full disclosure - I have never played another MMO and I really like LOTRO (I have a lifetime membership).  So long as there are people in LOTRO that I enjoy playing with, I don't see me stopping playing it (altho Bioware's SW MMO looks tempting).  I have played FPSs extensively though and would not want to see that mechanic introduced in LOTRO. fps i think is the wrong term to describe it i think real time would be more accurate and has been in existence in comp rpg's almost as long as turn based games and has made for some great games if handled right(as has turn based) whether or not it would work in lotro better than the turn based i couldn't say without trying both, but that would be for a lotro 2 or lotro alternate

thnx have fun and hope they don't screw the game up for you

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by Karahandras

Originally posted by Yeebo

Combat:

Change it to a twitch based FPS, or some abortion of a hybrid system where you have to aim manually but your stats still affect whether you hit or not....no thanks.  LoTRO has fairly strategic combat for a turn based system.Don't take this the wrong way but may i ask where is the strategy? you point, click then press a couple of buttons to set of special skills, if you fail a quest, get defeated etc. there is nothing you can do different next time or is this just purely in comparison to wow, eq2 etc?  Play up something other than a Hunter or a Champion and you'd be aware of that.Classes i setteld on where hunter, lore-master and guardian and din't really see any difference in them outside the starter lvls  And why is LoTRO being called out on this, instead of WoW, WAR, EQ, EQ II...and hell every other MMO that has turn based combat?maybe the guy is a lotr fan

 

I meant purely in comparison to other MMOs with turn based combat (WoW, EQ II, ect. as you say).  That should have been pretty clear from the last line of my post. Yep, but after posting in these forums i've found it best to clarify at times

And if you really couldn't tell any difference in the gameplay between

1. a  fairly simple single target DPS class with limited crowd control abilities

2.  a tank with two different primary combo chains that are activated by different reactives and where the combo chains have switch points leading to different outcomes (for example a high threat attack or a self heal off of a block activated chain). 

3. and a class that in parties has to manage a pet as well as decide whether to heal, cure, DPS, debuff, stun targets, or hand out power buffs (and really needs to keep on top of all of them to be working at full potential).

...I would suggest that you didn't get far enough to see what these classes really can do, or that I very badly misinterpreted what you meant.  For example, as I recall at low levels Gaurdians don't have a single combo chain, much less two reactive ones with branch points.   The complexity in LoTRO ramps up very slowly, it's just as dead simple as most turn based MMOs at low levels (and remains so for some classes even at high levels). I got them all to around lvl 25 or so, i just felt the classes became overbalanced once i got outside bree doing the same quests with each i couldn't find any angles to play for each of them, not sure if this explains it any better

In any case, I do not think the combat in LoTRO would be imrpoved in the slighest by moving away from the turn based model.  Changing the combat so drastically this late in the games life would be an absolutely enourmous NGE style f up. any game that changes gameplay after people invest time and money in it opens itself up to some really bad press, but personally do think the game could benefit from a bit more complexity in its character customisation options(which could explain why i felt the classes where overbalanced)

As sort of a final point on this, I feel it should be mentioned that Turbine is constantly evolving LotRO as is. Many small changes (and some not so small) have already been done in the 2yrs the game has been out. Every interview and dev blog says that more are on the way, with new content, more crafting, changes to the legendary system, the older class quests and so on. I think it is fair to say we will see at least some of the changes people have expressed a desire for here in the next few free expansions and some truely major innovation to the game introduced with Rohan and Helm's Deep.

Originally posted by ericbelser

As sort of a final point on this, I feel it should be mentioned that Turbine is constantly evolving LotRO as is. Many small changes (and some not so small) have already been done in the 2yrs the game has been out. Every interview and dev blog says that more are on the way, with new content, more crafting, changes to the legendary system, the older class quests and so on. I think it is fair to say we will see at least some of the changes people have expressed a desire for here in the next few free expansions and some truely major innovation to the game introduced with Rohan and Helm's Deep.

sounds interesting, i did look in to see if mom would offer me anything different but i think it was too soon after i left

out of curiosity any idea on what these 'innovations' would be? or is this just more marketing talk as i honestly can't remember seeing anything on lotro that i hadn't seen elsewhere(not that this is uniques to lotro unfortunately)

Biggest pont of actual innovation (something no other MMO has yet done) centers around the idea of "warfare" driven zones/instances where you will be commanding a number of NPCs that you fit out, train and upgrade over time. Nothing usable in the "regular" game, but specific quest lines/battle instances where you will fight with "your" customized unit of NPCs vs the scenario.

There are hints of a true mounted combat system coming with Rohan (somewhat obviously) not new to MMOs, but new to LotRO

An increase in the level cap has basically been confirmed along with the resulting revamp of many older class quests, raid zones and other level dependent stuff.

Originally posted by ericbelser

Biggest pont of actual innovation (something no other MMO has yet done) centers around the idea of "warfare" driven zones/instances where you will be commanding a number of NPCs that you fit out, train and upgrade over time. Nothing usable in the "regular" game, but specific quest lines/battle instances where you will fight with "your" customized unit of NPCs vs the scenario.

There are hints of a true mounted combat system coming with Rohan (somewhat obviously) not new to MMOs, but new to LotRO

An increase in the level cap has basically been confirmed along with the resulting revamp of many older class quests, raid zones and other level dependent stuff.

thankyou

 the closest i've seen to this is the merc system in guildwars

certainly got me interested again and will be keeping an eye on this to see how it's done

LotRO, while continuing to receive periodic free updates, improvements and new content, plus a retail (about $30US) paid expansion about once a year, won't ever get the complete makeover as the writer of this article suggests.  

Beyond "wouldn't it be kewl if.." and while the author does make some good points, the reality of life is that an NGE-type of "makeover" for LotRO is impractical, if not impossible, unless developers pretty much start designing these things with a clean slate.  Do we think Turbine will ever come out with a "LotRO 2?"  Nope.

Yet, for many of us long-time residents of the LotRO MMORPG (I've been in this MMO since early closed beta and have been a Lifetime Founder since day one), many of the recent "updates" and the "improvements" planned for Volume 2 are at least as often viewed as bitter rather than sweet.

The problems started with Mines of Moria and it seems to be continuing to move in the wrong direction.

Instancing is a crutch that's being overdone -- no matter what the dev journals say, if it looks like a dog, barks like a dog and bites like a dog, it's a dog.  If we wanted instanced-everything, we'd be playing Age of Conan.

LotRO is alarming many by moving ever so strongly toward Raiding, hoping to lure the pubescents and the rest of the hardcore like-minded who couldn't care les about the journey, they ignore the lore, they can't be bothered to smell the flowers, all they want is max level, max gear ASAP -- to raid.  More large-scale raids as an entity  onto itself where, in their minds, the only items worthwhile for your avatar are raid rewards.  Step-by-step, the new regime in charge of LotRO is further alienating themselves from the core premise that players could grind/hunt for, quest and craft equipment comparible to those received in raids.  The only explanation for this is that the Turbine Team has deluded themselves into thinking this is what LotRO players want.  The reality of life, however, is that we'd all be playing WoW, not LotRO, if we wanted a raid-centric MMO.

LotRO should hold true to it's roots -- the core values and systems that both the LoTRO MMO and the LotRO community were founded on. 

Change is not always a good thing.

Originally posted by ericbelser

Biggest pont of actual innovation (something no other MMO has yet done) centers around the idea of "warfare" driven zones/instances where you will be commanding a number of NPCs that you fit out, train and upgrade over time. Nothing usable in the "regular" game, but specific quest lines/battle instances where you will fight with "your" customized unit of NPCs vs the scenario.

Amazing.  I was just thinking about this the other day.  Something along the lines of your rep with with different groups, depending how much rep would = X number of 'leadership' points that you could spend on that races NPC troops.  1 recruit = 1 pt, 1 mounted = 5 pt etc.... You could have a large group of rabble or a small group of mounted elites and run the quest with them.

If they did a free zone area just think of the large scale army battles you could have :)

Originally posted by Lizante

LotRO is alarming many by moving ever so strongly toward Raiding,  .....

But are they trying to suck in an additional subscriber base or throwing something out there for players already in the game?

If you look through the O-forum threads you'll see comments like 'maxed out in a month' , 'will make it to level 20 by the end of my first day', 'have an alt at 35 already after a couple of weeks' etc... etc...

Now they could be raid-centric players like you mentioned or non-lore carer's or just have way too much time on thier hands.  No matter which they fit they will eventually hit the ceiling and either do alts which will go through the material even faster the 2nd or 3rd time through or they'll leave the game.

OR Turbine can throw out dungeon raids for them to play in while they make the next book.  Which is better?  They go bye-bye or play off to the side?

If Turbine can make it so the gear the crafters make is just as good as the raid gear then 'both ' games will be supported.  And as long as we don't start hearing the 'LFF for X, must have this, this and this'  I could care less what they do.

Not everyone is going to truely care about the lore.  If you polled the player base right now I'm sure less than 30% will have even read the books.  The rest will only know the name from the movies.

I would honestly say right now that LotRO is a niche game.  It is seen; pretty much the same way you described it, as a game for those ONLY interested in The Lord of the Rings.  Now I don't think that's a bad thing as I kind of like the less people clutter thing, but from Turbines point of (financial) view ....... not really a good thing.

Turbine is going to make changes.  I may not like some of them, others won't effect me (raids), others will be so what (Pvp).  Like you said, as long as we don't see an NGE explosion, I can probably work around most of it.

First off, while I can understand some of the criticism about instancing, I think many are losing sight of a couple of things.

For one thing, Moria was a massive expansion with absolutely ridiculous amounts of things to do and places to go. Yeah the hardcore types chewed it up pretty fast, but that is hardly new to any MMO. I agree there hasn't been a lot of new stuff post Moria, but on the one hand they have had a lot of balancing, tweaking and bug fixing to do and on the other, I see the "lull" as a bit like a dev team taking a deep breath. I have faith that the next wave of expansion will reflect some things learned from MoM.

Secondly, a substantial portion of the LotRO player base is calling for MORE raids - that's not a move to attract WoW players, it's listening to what a lot of current subscribers say they want. Also, LotRO does a lot of work with smaller raids - the 3 and 6 man instances, to me those aren't really "raids" at all. LotRO still has very very few 12man+ raids. There are also serious rumors in the works about "scaling instances" that would scale mob difficulty from 2-3 players to 8-10 etc.

I'll agree the post MoM content is pretty thin right now, but I have faith that it will grow rapidly soon :)

Originally posted by ericbelser

Biggest pont of actual innovation (something no other MMO has yet done) centers around the idea of "warfare" driven zones/instances where you will be commanding a number of NPCs that you fit out, train and upgrade over time. Nothing usable in the "regular" game, but specific quest lines/battle instances where you will fight with "your" customized unit of NPCs vs the scenario.

sorry, my bad, I forgot that this is one of the two main selling points for atlantica online

oh, well will still keep an eye on it to see how it's done

Originally posted by Karahandras

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by Karahandras

Originally posted by Yeebo

Combat:

Change it to a twitch based FPS, or some abortion of a hybrid system where you have to aim manually but your stats still affect whether you hit or not....no thanks.  LoTRO has fairly strategic combat for a turn based system.Don't take this the wrong way but may i ask where is the strategy? you point, click then press a couple of buttons to set of special skills, if you fail a quest, get defeated etc. there is nothing you can do different next time or is this just purely in comparison to wow, eq2 etc?  Play up something other than a Hunter or a Champion and you'd be aware of that.Classes i setteld on where hunter, lore-master and guardian and din't really see any difference in them outside the starter lvls  And why is LoTRO being called out on this, instead of WoW, WAR, EQ, EQ II...and hell every other MMO that has turn based combat?maybe the guy is a lotr fan

 

I meant purely in comparison to other MMOs with turn based combat (WoW, EQ II, ect. as you say).  That should have been pretty clear from the last line of my post. Yep, but after posting in these forums i've found it best to clarify at times

And if you really couldn't tell any difference in the gameplay between

1. a  fairly simple single target DPS class with limited crowd control abilities

2.  a tank with two different primary combo chains that are activated by different reactives and where the combo chains have switch points leading to different outcomes (for example a high threat attack or a self heal off of a block activated chain). 

3. and a class that in parties has to manage a pet as well as decide whether to heal, cure, DPS, debuff, stun targets, or hand out power buffs (and really needs to keep on top of all of them to be working at full potential).

...I would suggest that you didn't get far enough to see what these classes really can do, or that I very badly misinterpreted what you meant.  For example, as I recall at low levels Gaurdians don't have a single combo chain, much less two reactive ones with branch points.   The complexity in LoTRO ramps up very slowly, it's just as dead simple as most turn based MMOs at low levels (and remains so for some classes even at high levels). I got them all to around lvl 25 or so, i just felt the classes became overbalanced once i got outside bree doing the same quests with each i couldn't find any angles to play for each of them, not sure if this explains it any better

In any case, I do not think the combat in LoTRO would be imrpoved in the slighest by moving away from the turn based model.  Changing the combat so drastically this late in the games life would be an absolutely enourmous NGE style f up. any game that changes gameplay after people invest time and money in it opens itself up to some really bad press, but personally do think the game could benefit from a bit more complexity in its character customisation options(which could explain why i felt the classes where overbalanced)

 

Wow, this is how you have a conversation on a message board.  I was beginning to wonder if anyone here could do it.

The character customization got a big boost in MoM.  Traits now unlock set bonuses in addition to what they used to do.  The set bonuses are a lot more powerful than the old line bonuses.  In theory every class has at least three different spec lines that play very differently available.  However in practice this is not true for many classes.  For example I can't imagine any sane Loremaster going down the debuf line.  But still, with that and the LI system things have improved.

As far as different classes being able to approach quests differently, I can see you point.  90% of the time your strategy is run in and kill stuff either to get stuff from their corpses or gather items nearby.  That really doesn't change from one class to another (is that what you meant)?  Sure a Burgler can sometimes sneak in and get stuff instead of killing (and a Hobbit or Elf of any class can also do that with the right equipment after a certain level), but that's about as divergent as running the same quest will get.

The only time different classes will use radically different basic strategies is when you are trying to do something at the edge of your ability (get to something that requires you to pull three guys at once for example..or solo a gnarly elite). And at low levels you don't have the tools to do something like that in the first place, so you tend to either have an easy time of it or run for your life.  I'd say that's true of most MMOs when you come to it, and it's certainly one of my gripes about the genre.  LoTRO is certainly no better than any other turn based MMO in that respect.

As an aside, I'd recommend a Burg to you if you every try the game again.  It's a very complex class that requires a lot of forethought to play.  The fact that they have relaibe stealth also allows them to sometimes approach quests differently than most classes would.

What follows is a suggestion I submitted to the crafting forums in LotRO many moons ago.  Unfortunately, it seems like Turbine's solution to the crafting dilemma is to keep tossing in more recipes with each release.

Who wants to spend days/weeks hunting for coordinating recipe variants that differ only in aesthetic appearance (or the alternative of spending multiple gold trying to buy the hundreds of new recipes at auction)?

Instead I propose a much more custom crafting UI that mimics the character creation panel, where, depending on the particular piece of armour to be crafted, you can select from a variety of pre-defined skins for multiple elements of the one armour piece. Each recipe could have unique options to that piece of armour (just the way that if I want to create a Dwarf from the White Mountains, I have a different set of options for hair, nose, eyes, coloring, etc. than I do when creating a Harfoot Hobbit). You shouldn't be able to make a Bronze Armour piece that looks exactly like an Mirrored Ancient Armour piece, but you could then have almost as many different variants of Mirrored Ancient Armour as you do in Character appearance.

This, to me, seems to be much more in the spirit of true craftsmanship, allowing the craftsman to make truly unique, made-to-order pieces, while exercising his/her own creativity within the bounds of a broad set of rules. It would also make crafting much more of an experience, something other than just a grind for materials and a crossing of the fingers hoping for a crit.

I also think to go along with this, a craftsman should be able to "design" a particular item and then share that design via the chat box where anyone could CTRL-Click the item and "try it on" in a much more detailed paper-doll preview window with zoom-in/zoom-out capabilites, etc. Either that or allow a craftsman to invite a person into a "crafting fellowship" where that person can see a live preview of the design as the crafter is tweaking it to be just right. This could be a private instance at the crafting facility or just an overlay, but it would allow the "customer" and the crafter to collaborate on a piece until they can agree on a particular look.

I know that I have made this sound like it should only apply to armour pieces, but it could apply equally to custom weapons as well, where, for example, I could choose from a set of 10 options for the shaft, 10 options for the head, 5 options for the grip, and 5 options for the "effect" (e.g., glowing, sparkling, shimmering, flaming, etc.) of a particular one-handed axe. You could even allow a "color picker" to choose custom effect colors (something more than just white, green, and red).

It would also make sense to me to make the number of options as well as the variety to increase with the level/tier of the crafted item (e.g., Tier 1 items might only allow for two or three categories of customization with only 3-4 options for each category, where as a Tier 5 item might allow for six or seven categories of customization with 15-20 options in each category). Thus, as my skill as a craftsman advances, so does my ability to "customize" the items I can craft. You could even allow for the specification of optional effects/design parameters unique to critted items, so if you "crit" an item you unlock additional design options that are not available on normal versions of the same item.

I understand that this would be basically a complete redesign of the crafting system from the ground up, but it would sure make it a lot more enjoyable, allow the crafter to showcase his/her talent as a designer/craftsman, and satisfy the need for variety and uniqueness in character appearance in-game, while completely circumventing the need to manage/acquire hundreds of "unique" recipes that really aren't unique, but merely produce a different look for items with identical stats.
 

Originally posted by Yeebo

Originally posted by Karahandras

Originally posted by Yeebo 

I meant purely in comparison to other MMOs with turn based combat (WoW, EQ II, ect. as you say).  That should have been pretty clear from the last line of my post. Yep, but after posting in these forums i've found it best to clarify at times

And if you really couldn't tell any difference in the gameplay between

1. a  fairly simple single target DPS class with limited crowd control abilities

2.  a tank with two different primary combo chains that are activated by different reactives and where the combo chains have switch points leading to different outcomes (for example a high threat attack or a self heal off of a block activated chain). 

3. and a class that in parties has to manage a pet as well as decide whether to heal, cure, DPS, debuff, stun targets, or hand out power buffs (and really needs to keep on top of all of them to be working at full potential).

...I would suggest that you didn't get far enough to see what these classes really can do, or that I very badly misinterpreted what you meant.  For example, as I recall at low levels Gaurdians don't have a single combo chain, much less two reactive ones with branch points.   The complexity in LoTRO ramps up very slowly, it's just as dead simple as most turn based MMOs at low levels (and remains so for some classes even at high levels). I got them all to around lvl 25 or so, i just felt the classes became overbalanced once i got outside bree doing the same quests with each i couldn't find any angles to play for each of them, not sure if this explains it any better

In any case, I do not think the combat in LoTRO would be imrpoved in the slighest by moving away from the turn based model.  Changing the combat so drastically this late in the games life would be an absolutely enourmous NGE style f up. any game that changes gameplay after people invest time and money in it opens itself up to some really bad press, but personally do think the game could benefit from a bit more complexity in its character customisation options(which could explain why i felt the classes where overbalanced)

 

Wow, this is how you have a conversation on a message board.  I was beginning to wonder if anyone here could do it.

The character customization got a big boost in MoM.  Traits now unlock set bonuses in addition to what they used to do.  The set bonuses are a lot more powerful than the old line bonuses.  In theory every class has at least three different spec lines that play very differently available.  However in practice this is not true for many classes.  For example I can't imagine any sane Loremaster going down the debuf line.  But still, with that and the LI system things have improved.

As far as different classes being able to approach quests differently, I can see you point.  90% of the time your strategy is run in and kill stuff either to get stuff from their corpses or gather items nearby.  That really doesn't change from one class to another (is that what you meant)?  Sure a Burgler can sometimes sneak in and get stuff instead of killing (and a Hobbit or Elf of any class can also do that with the right equipment after a certain level), but that's about as divergent as running the same quest will get. yep, I really wanted a class to grab me so i could play it through the rest of the game

The only time different classes will use radically different basic strategies is when you are trying to do something at the edge of your ability (get to something that requires you to pull three guys at once for example..or solo a gnarly elite). And at low levels you don't have the tools to do something like that in the first place, so you tend to either have an easy time of it or run for your life.  I'd say that's true of most MMOs when you come to it, and it's certainly one of my gripes about the genre.  LoTRO is certainly no better than any other turn based MMO in that respect. certainly agree with this, there are the odd couple i've tried that do things differently but they never seem to have the money behind them for development and marketing

As an aside, I'd recommend a Burg to you if you every try the game again.  It's a very complex class that requires a lot of forethought to play.  The fact that they have relaibe stealth also allows them to sometimes approach quests differently than most classes would. cool, i went for the lore-master as the guide said it was difficult to play, maybe will give burg another try if i come back

i still have my copy of lotro and don't intend getting rid of it any time soon and am still keeping my eye on it to see how it develops(am waiting for earthrise atm, but experience has taught me not to get my hopes up)

have fun and kick some orc a**e

I'm going to largely echo the other posters here. LotRO is what it is. Personally, I'd love to see an MMG with a combat system similar to Mount & Blade or Oblivion. LotRO is not that game. Once the game is out the door, you don't up and toss out the basic gameplay on the users. Insert obligatory NGE reference.

That being said, I would like to add:

Imagine being able to dodge some of the enemy arrows by doing a roll to the ground, or by simply turning your body to the side at the last moment.

Try playing a War Mage or archer in Asheron's Call (1999). Projectile have actual physics, and can be dodged by side-stepping. Bows use ammo, and arrows that fail to hit a mob stick where they hit and can be recovered later. PVP between mages largely consists of FPS-style circle-strafing.

FPS sucks. Please do't do that. Combat can be dynamic and fun in 3rd person. Look at Fallout 3.

you dont need to reinvent PvP and combata. the Monster play is ingenious, but you guys are doing it all wrong. There is no real loss on death. Until you can figure out a real loss on death, and balance out the Monsters vs players, then Monster Play will be screwed up.

Some very well thought out ideas though. Crafting could def use an overhaul. Design would be awesome. Texturing though may be going overboard.

Has the author of this article learned nothing from SWG? It's the worst idea in the world to totally change a game like he's suggested. SWG went from a dice-based combat to a twitch-based combat, and look what happened to it?

I really don't understand why people keep asking for twitch-based combat in RPGs. These are not FPS action games, they are roleplaying games! They are about advancing characters and choosing the right abilities in the right situations, not about whether you can click the mouse as fast as someone else.

Completely disagree about making combat mechanics so complex and complicated ... other reasons why have been already said by others. :-))

Originally posted by FlaFringe

I completely agree with the disagreement posts. Please don't change LOTRO so drastically that it becomes a whole new game. That's not what we want. Instead, try to focus on making our current game of choice for 2-years now into what it could and should be.

Where to start? Try actually updating the UI like you promised over a year ago so that it's at least on par with standard MMO UIs. Right now, it's well below standard and in need of much love.

And as far as crafting...I loathed EQ2 crafting and that's exactly what he's talking about. No thank you.

Amen, i play MMOs for fun. I dont want to spend 8 hours crafting a sheild ill outlevel in a weekend or need to spend 4 hours killign a boar. I just. want. to. have. fun.

Originally posted by Lizante

LotRO, while continuing to receive periodic free updates, improvements and new content, plus a retail (about $30US) paid expansion about once a year, won't ever get the complete makeover as the writer of this article suggests.  

Beyond "wouldn't it be kewl if.." and while the author does make some good points, the reality of life is that an NGE-type of "makeover" for LotRO is impractical, if not impossible, unless developers pretty much start designing these things with a clean slate.  Do we think Turbine will ever come out with a "LotRO 2?"  Nope.

Yet, for many of us long-time residents of the LotRO MMORPG (I've been in this MMO since early closed beta and have been a Lifetime Founder since day one), many of the recent "updates" and the "improvements" planned for Volume 2 are at least as often viewed as bitter rather than sweet.

The problems started with Mines of Moria and it seems to be continuing to move in the wrong direction.

Instancing is a crutch that's being overdone -- no matter what the dev journals say, if it looks like a dog, barks like a dog and bites like a dog, it's a dog.  If we wanted instanced-everything, we'd be playing Age of Conan.

LotRO is alarming many by moving ever so strongly toward Raiding, hoping to lure the pubescents and the rest of the hardcore like-minded who couldn't care les about the journey, they ignore the lore, they can't be bothered to smell the flowers, all they want is max level, max gear ASAP -- to raid.  More large-scale raids as an entity  onto itself where, in their minds, the only items worthwhile for your avatar are raid rewards.  Step-by-step, the new regime in charge of LotRO is further alienating themselves from the core premise that players could grind/hunt for, quest and craft equipment comparible to those received in raids.  The only explanation for this is that the Turbine Team has deluded themselves into thinking this is what LotRO players want.  The reality of life, however, is that we'd all be playing WoW, not LotRO, if we wanted a raid-centric MMO.

LotRO should hold true to it's roots -- the core values and systems that both the LoTRO MMO and the LotRO community were founded on. 

Change is not always a good thing.

 

EXACTLY! LOTRO has gone downhill since the realase of Moria IMO. I enjoyed LOTRO at the beginning and slowly grew to dislike the direction Turbine was taking.

LOTRO for me is a huge dissapointment...My wish is that Turbine will one day drop it and let a different company take over. Until that happens I likely won't return.

Ideas to enhance LOTRO gameplay? Fire Turbine and let a different company steer LOTRO in the direction it belongs. Until that happens LOTRO will always be just another average MMO which sucks in the Tolkien fans. Those who could care less about Tolkien see LOTRO for what it really is....another average MMO with great graphics.

I enjoy LotRO for a variety of reasons, too numerous to list here.

The combat system has improved, somewhat, but the level disparities are becoming worse.  I hate the idea of becoming so powerful that I am immune to what used to be lethal attacks.  Well-designed and fun zones soon become trivial, like the Barrow Downs and the Old Forest.  While some elite zones still remain off limits without a great group...

The crafting system is an awful grind, having to make hundreds of trash items out of thousands resources just to advance.  I wish the reputation and trait system worked better with it.

I also remember when gear didn't make as much difference, it didn't modify character stats.  It's a shame that it became gear-centric like the rest of the pack.  (AoC is making the same changes now too ~sighs~)

I think Turbine's biggest mistake was trying to intertwine the game with the story, and therefore is very restricticted by the existing plot and Lore.  They could've done it like Matrix Online (bad game but it has some neat ideas) and made the game a continuation of the story.  If the game had been set in the Fourth Age, after the Ring is destroyed, then they would have had many more options, even for RvR.