Great write-up.  I just got done reading the comments over on Gamesutra and all I can say is wow.  Talk about drama.

Hey, if WOW (Blizzard) is going to sit on its behind and take its sweet time on getting out expansions, then someone ought to copy WOW.  WOW players need NEW CONTENT.  Hear that BLIZZ?  NEW CONTENT!

And if another game delivers, then so be it.

I have not tried Alganon yet, but you are certainly right about all this buzz.  Now that all this drama has unfolded about it, I certainly will give this thing a try once they change the art direction.  I like the first thing I read Derek Smart say about his direction for the game.  And if they can make something that is enjoyable and doesn't have the WoW-like face, I'll certainly give it a try.

Also, I was around for the launch of Horizons: Empire of Istaria, and I'm glad the game is still working today, although obviously it did not live up to the expectations set forth when the game was in development.  So although I have nothing against David Allen, I can't say I'm surprised that another one of his games crashed and burned.  I'd still probably give another one of his games a shot if it turned out well, but I won't be surprised by another failure.

What I don't get is this reverence or respect for Allen?  Not just here, but elsewhere I see people speak of him in such high regard.

Why?

What has he done in the MMO industry that's worthy of my adulation?  Horizons was just horrible, as is Alganon.  Hell, that simply places him in the company of countless failed MMO designers.  *shrug*

Originally posted by UknownAspect

I have not tried Alganon yet, but you are certainly right about all this buzz.  Now that all this drama has unfolded about it, I certainly will give this thing a try once they change the art direction.  I like the first thing I read Derek Smart say about his direction for the game.  And if they can make something that is enjoyable and doesn't have the WoW-like face, I'll certainly give it a try.

 

as they say in hollywood    '''Its bettter to be talked about then not talked about at all'''

never had an interest in the game myself but looking to see where it goes now heh

Feel bad/sorry for David Allen? Ehh, I don't see how. He had this coming. All his brash and arrogant statements, not to mention all the contradictions regarding this title during the last 4-5 months he was spouting off in interviews and updates on the Alganon site. Anyone who wasn't in a blind fanstate could of seen this coming.

As far as the game itself, it's going to be really tough to gain momentum after it's brief history. Maybe they'll get a pretty stable but small userbase. Who knows? A lot of the die-hard supporters who have been part of the game's community were turned off by the recent events so all that I can personally really see is the ones remaining faithful to the game slowly bleeding away.

You can't really turn the game around without making it into a completely new and fresh title. Good luck to them, but I just don't see it happening. 

 Good write up. Alganon is a story of what not to do when copying another IP for sure. I would not go near anything Derek Smart is a part of anyways. I have little to no tolerance for someone that treats people the way he does.

Interesting paraphrase. Things didn't end so well for Algernon, is it a glimpse of Alganon's future too? Gradually becoming stupider until it dies?

I don't feel bad for him or Quest Online.  I did try out closed beta for a short time, the game as stated was not that bad.  I am not a WoW fan or detractor either one, just a game that isn't for me.  So my reaction to Alganon was much the same, just not for me.  Still I have watched with some interest the developments surrounding the game because of how much it did clone WoW and due to all the negativity around it.  I hope they can turn it around and right their ship and succeed.

On Horizons this is my own personal opinion.  I think Horizons has/had vast potential, vasssssssst potential.  A very interesting and deep class system, crafting system, lore and plenty of races to pick from.  I actually liked it quite a bit when I played long ago but even as non-social as I am I missed seeing any other players around.  Doing a /who on the whole world and only getting about 10-20 names, bleh.  Talking about it makes me want to peek at Horizons again sometime, lol.

You guys just have to check out the comments posted here, truly epic.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27688/Quest_Online_Fires_President_Hires_Derek_Smart.php#comments

There are plenty of players who will play a copy of WOW.  Alganon is not a copy of WOW.  Cause if you are gonna copy WOW then you need to have top quality game development team + very good overall support.  That is something no other MMO game company is able to produce atm.  Thats why WOW is played by millions - They all left other games that had alot of bugs and huge technical problems that overshadowed the fun of playing a game.

If you are going to do something better than what Blizzard is doing... then start doing the proper groundwork.  Alganon never did any of that.  They builit the game on sand and ofc it crumbled as soon as ppl starting to see the cracks.

Will I buy Alganon after reading this dev drama ?  Nope never !  Was I gonna buy it ever ?  .... lol

They could have named it "Give us your money now and we might make a game some day" - Thats much better than Alganon.  Nothing has changed tho ... its still exactly the same poor game it was from the start.  Nothing can save it.

Loved Horizons until the business end of things collapsed, which changed the whole community.

Tried Alganon beta and didn't get it - it's not even that it's so WOW like, it's that throwing everything in plus the kitchen sink just makes the garbage disposal break.

I've done some thinking - maybe designers should not be involved in the business side of games.  David Allen, Brad McQuaid, Richard Garriott, Raph Koster - any of those names familiar?  For what?  Designing or business failure?  Now some might argue that they don't like their designs but each of these guys were known for their designs, not just of game play but of entire worlds.  And each is now known for some type of failure in the business world.

What's absolutely fascinating is the no holds bar posting going on in the Alganon episode - talk about burning bridges.

What's even more amazing is that it's happening on the official game boards and Gamasutra - I would have expected it to happen here:)

 Allods, Alganon, and Runes of Magic all have a real WOW clone feel about them, Allods and WOW , are such a IN your face attitude community its taken alot of fun out of the games, Runes of Magic is pretty fast Paced and a Small world feel to it, needs more content, Alganon has a Diff Learning skill base, that i personaly prefer, and the world seems like a world (so far) nice and roomy, still not that Far into it as far as content  seems like alot atm, but time will tell, the community in Alganon is Super tiny, but so far (again) seems freindly, i personaly would rather play a Sparsly populated Game with a Helpfull community, then and Over populated game with elbow to elbow rude.

    So far no Bots, have not seen one gold Spammer ( probably due to low popultion= cost effective), i see alot of changes comeing and Needed, hopeful for the better.

   Hope to see Improvements, and refineing, and more people joining up, had some tough fights but fun fights,.

Originally posted by neuronomad

Great write-up.  I just got done reading the comments over on Gamesutra and all I can say is wow.  Talk about drama.

I'm glad that someone could get through it because after about halfway done reading all of it I couldn't stomach any more...

IMO they went from bad to worse, but I'll be interested to see how it works out. Kind of like how I like to watch them use the jaws of life on a train-wreck.

I started playing early in the beta and knew that noone was going to be able to get past the WoW-clone thing. I honestly could not tell you how any MMOG designer would do something so blatantly stupid.

Shocking that a game which was clearly going to fail for being a WoW rip off, failed for being a WoW rip off.

Shocking that a guy who made a failure MMO, made another failure MMO.

Shocking that another company assumed it was doing it all right when everytime information was released all sane people told them they were doing it wrong.

So easy to spot the failure ahead for games like this and STO, but yet somehow certain people all get blinded by it and think it will be good and pay for it anyways. It's become so easy to predict almost the exact level of success a game will have, it was easy with AoC, WAR, Aion, Champions, STO, Alganon, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth. Before each of these games were released you could tell exactly what range of success they'd have.

But what amazes me more then how easy it is to tell how good a game will do now a days, is how so many people can't tell they will hate a game and they buy it anyways. That's what truly amazes me.

Nice title for the article, Flowers for Algernon is a powerful science fiction story. Though you were not implying players were used as test subjects, were you? :)

David Allen is a guy who has failed with everything he has ever tried.

that and he has a mighty big napoleon complex if you've had the "honor" to read his posts/interviews. Basically he's misunderstood genius when it comes to mmorpgs if you ask him and if you ask others, he's guy who can change his mind about design idea 12 times a day and force a dev rewrite whole full finished system out of moments whim.

Originally posted by solarine

Nice title for the article, Flowers for Algernon is a powerful science fiction story. Though you were not implying players were used as test subjects, were you? :)

Ya, I was wondering how the allusion was supposed to work too. I don't think it's anything beyond Alganon being close to Algernon. Unless he's trying to make a statement about MMO's handicapping players to keep everyone equal? That could actually make for a very good discussion with relation to slower RPG combat.

Alganon snuck out of the gate, wasn't even running as they just sort of opened it one day, charging triple AAA prices and then turning around and whining about being compared to triple AAA titles. If you don't want to be compared to triple AAA games, don't charge triple AAA prices. That's how the game was presented to me, and that's how I judged it. If they want to shift that image and stop whining about their reputation, good luck with that. I mean it, but I am not sure it will be possible to recover. The game was buggy as hell last time I played it.

---

It seemed that while Quest Online’s debut title wasn’t blazing any trails, it was holding its own and beginning to carve itself a nice little slice of the market.

---

Ummm, what?!?!

No it was not holding its own.

No it was not carving itself a niche.

It was on the verge of total death when they went sub-free. That was a last ditch effort to save it.

When there are 4 people on the entire server at prime-time, that is not "holding your own" nor is it "carving out a niche". That is death for a MMO.

Originally posted by Harabeck

Originally posted by solarine

Nice title for the article, Flowers for Algernon is a powerful science fiction story. Though you were not implying players were used as test subjects, were you? :)

Ya, I was wondering how the allusion was supposed to work too. I don't think it's anything beyond Alganon being close to Algernon. Unless he's trying to make a statement about MMO's handicapping players to keep everyone equal? That could actually make for a very good discussion with relation to slower RPG combat.

Grasping for straws here, but maybe the allusion is to the fact that Alganon handicapped itself trying to get itself on equal footing with WoW, which is the basis of the definition of MMOs to a lot of people?

Granted, I've never read of the book, only heard of it, I just figured the title of this was just a play of words, not an allusion.

Originally posted by Cursedsei

Grasping for straws here, but maybe the allusion is to the fact that Alganon handicapped itself trying to get itself on equal footing with WoW, which is the basis of the definition of MMOs to a lot of people?

Granted, I've never read of the book, only heard of it, I just figured the title of this was just a play of words, not an allusion.

Well I was just joking. I don't think it's anything further than a play on words. :)

Originally posted by Stradden It seemed that while Quest Online’s debut title wasn’t blazing any trails, it was holding its own and beginning to carve itself a nice little slice of the market.

This is a pretty funny comment seeing how there's around 30-40 people playing primetime on the servers.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf  

But what amazes me more then how easy it is to tell how good a game will do now a days, is how so many people can't tell they will hate a game and they buy it anyways. That's what truly amazes me.

Boredom. And curiosity: how much of the promised and hyped up elements did the game company realise in their to-be released MMO? And if this is about a franchise you like, how much did they manage to capture the atmosphere of the books/tv series?

Plus people who have played months and months (sometimes even years) of  their favorite MMO are often also looking for something else, something new and fresh to play with. Too bad that no real MMO smash hits have been released for a long, long time (although ToR, TSW, GW2, and to a lesser degree FFXIV and TERA seem to be promising)

Good point. Even thought I think all of this drama could have been avoided, its serving the purpose of getting the game noticed. But its a measure of how desperate those involved must have been to have gone to Derek Smart in the first place, No matter how intelligent the man is(from all accounts quite) he is still perceived by MANY to be a loose cannon, and has demonstrated many times in the past a lack of the ability to apply diplomacy and/or tact when a situation warrants it.

Be that as it may, I'm still watching to see what happens. If he can turn things around, even to a limited extent, then more power to him.

when i was in closed beta it did feel like i was playing WoW, an pre-pre-alpha Stage WoW...but still WoW

Originally posted by pencilrick

Hey, if WOW (Blizzard) is going to sit on its behind and take its sweet time on getting out expansions, then someone ought to copy WOW.  WOW players need NEW CONTENT.  Hear that BLIZZ?  NEW CONTENT!

And if another game delivers, then so be it.

Content is one of the most expensive and time intensive elements in MMO creation.  I have no doubt that mighty Blizzard(with all of its resources) could provide it in a more timely fashion, but the resources required to do that would shrink their profit margins, which would have their share holders and other such howling like banshees.

Copying WOW might have contributed to some gamers not playing, but had it had an entertaining story line and done well it would have had an audience, particularly from those who enjoy WOW but are bored and waiting for the next expansion.

Two things could have made the initial launch much more successful.

First, they should have obtained enough funding to make the launch rock solid. It was pretty clear it was shoved out the door too early (a common problem that far too many titles suffer from)  and secondly, it should have used an alternate (less expensive) pricing plan , say 19.95 for the client and 9.95 a month sub fee and it would have drawn more players who were more forgiving of its lack of initial content.

Originally posted by tarvik

Originally posted by UknownAspect

I have not tried Alganon yet, but you are certainly right about all this buzz.  Now that all this drama has unfolded about it, I certainly will give this thing a try once they change the art direction.  I like the first thing I read Derek Smart say about his direction for the game.  And if they can make something that is enjoyable and doesn't have the WoW-like face, I'll certainly give it a try.

 

 

as they say in hollywood    '''Its bettter to be talked about then not talked about at all'''

never had an interest in the game myself but looking to see where it goes now heh

This quote " It is better to be talked about than not to be talked about" is actually one of Oscar Wilde's famous bon mots. Hollywood has nothing to do with it. Just defending a brilliant wit.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

But what amazes me more then how easy it is to tell how good a game will do now a days, is how so many people can't tell they will hate a game and they buy it anyways. That's what truly amazes me.

I hate comments like this.

When I said I hated Fable 2 on some other site, someone criticized me for essentially that, "Why'd you play the game so much if you hated it? That's just stupid.".

No, what's stupid is to hate on a game without trying it. It amazes ME that there are some people so ignorant that they will say something like what I quoted. God forbid someone decided to give a game a chance instead of just rolling with the hate train after a few screenshots.

As for me? I've tried the trial version of the game, as a AAA priced MMO, it fails horribly. The character models are one of the worst I've seen, and customization is worse than most any F2P title out there (even older ones). Yet the study system is a nice touch, as is the built in Library system when both decide to work, I've clicked on a skill to study several times, even right-clicked and selected the add to option, before the game decided to listen to me.

If it had stayed with the system selected, it would of failed horribly, at least now with the box price being 20$, and no cost outside of the box itself, the game at least has a chance. I just hope with the graphical redesign, it also comes with updated character models and customization for said models. 

Maybe we should give flowers to Blizzard for copying everyone else's mmo and using Game Workshop's Warhammer ip to do it ?  So the golden rule written in stone is that Blizzard can copy everyone else but noone can copy Blizzard's work ? Thats like saying, do as I say but do not do as I do.  Whatever happend to being your own company with your own ideas.  I'm not saying the makers of Alganon are right here because I'll criticize anyone who copies other people's ideas but that would almost include the entire mmo genre at the current moment.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Maybe we should give flowers to Blizzard for copying everyone else's mmo and using Game Workshop's Warhammer ip to do it ?  So the golden rule written in stone is that Blizzard can copy everyone else but noone can copy Blizzard's work ? Thats like saying, do as I say but do not do as I do.  Whatever happend to being your own company with your own ideas.  I'm not saying the makers of Alganon are right here because I'll criticize anyone who copies other people's ideas but that would almost include the entire mmo genre at the current moment.

People like you who spout the whole 'Blizzard copied off Warhammer to make Warcraft' thing always make me laugh. Best part is when I tell people like you to give a source on that claim and you resort to more bad arguments rather than giving one.

I found Alganon to be a bad WoW clone. It just didn't grab me and it was buggy. I am just glad I didn't pay for it. In contrast, Runes of Magic is also a WoW clone, as mentioned in the article, but I play that once in a while because it's a decent WoW clone that I don't have to pay for. So it isn't JUST because it is a WoW clone that I wasn't interested in playing Alganon.

I really do hope that the folks over at Quest Online can pull their act together and bring the game to the level of "successful niche game", but I don't feel sorry for David Allen. He didn't deliver on Horizons, and Alganon isn't exactly stellar. If you're going to be "The Man" in a company, you've got to expect to be held responsible for what that company produces or what it fails to produce.

The soap opera over on Gamasutra... well, that was hilarious.

Also, completely off-topic, but it's been on my mind since I first saw this game mentioned: Alganon sounds like a 12-step program for people who can't put the spirulina down.

Originally posted by Leviathonlx

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Maybe we should give flowers to Blizzard for copying everyone else's mmo and using Game Workshop's Warhammer ip to do it ?  So the golden rule written in stone is that Blizzard can copy everyone else but noone can copy Blizzard's work ? Thats like saying, do as I say but do not do as I do.  Whatever happend to being your own company with your own ideas.  I'm not saying the makers of Alganon are right here because I'll criticize anyone who copies other people's ideas but that would almost include the entire mmo genre at the current moment.

 

People like you who spout the whole 'Blizzard copied off Warhammer to make Warcraft' thing always make me laugh. Best part is when I tell people like you to give a source on that claim and you resort to more bad arguments rather than giving one.

Being in denial is definitely not a good thing for gaming industry.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Maybe we should give flowers to Blizzard for copying everyone else's mmo and using Game Workshop's Warhammer ip to do it ?  So the golden rule written in stone is that Blizzard can copy everyone else but noone can copy Blizzard's work ? Thats like saying, do as I say but do not do as I do.  Whatever happend to being your own company with your own ideas.  I'm not saying the makers of Alganon are right here because I'll criticize anyone who copies other people's ideas but that would almost include the entire mmo genre at the current moment.

No. The golden rule is if you are going to copy, make sure that you do it right, that its polished and fun.  Those facts combined with the Blizzard band and its on going content explain why Blizzard has retained millions and millions of players over more than 5 years now.  Alganon has some fun elements, but its no where near polished, and its character models are some of the most primitive I've seen in quite some time.  As I said earlier, its too bad as the game has potential.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by Leviathonlx

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Maybe we should give flowers to Blizzard for copying everyone else's mmo and using Game Workshop's Warhammer ip to do it ?  So the golden rule written in stone is that Blizzard can copy everyone else but noone can copy Blizzard's work ? Thats like saying, do as I say but do not do as I do.  Whatever happend to being your own company with your own ideas.  I'm not saying the makers of Alganon are right here because I'll criticize anyone who copies other people's ideas but that would almost include the entire mmo genre at the current moment.

 

People like you who spout the whole 'Blizzard copied off Warhammer to make Warcraft' thing always make me laugh. Best part is when I tell people like you to give a source on that claim and you resort to more bad arguments rather than giving one.

 

Being in denial is definitely not a good thing for gaming industry.

Neither is endless hatred directed at the game that brought millions and millions of new players into the MMO market...

Originally posted by Leviathonlx

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Maybe we should give flowers to Blizzard for copying everyone else's mmo and using Game Workshop's Warhammer ip to do it ?  So the golden rule written in stone is that Blizzard can copy everyone else but noone can copy Blizzard's work ? Thats like saying, do as I say but do not do as I do.  Whatever happend to being your own company with your own ideas.  I'm not saying the makers of Alganon are right here because I'll criticize anyone who copies other people's ideas but that would almost include the entire mmo genre at the current moment.

 

People like you who spout the whole 'Blizzard copied off Warhammer to make Warcraft' thing always make me laugh. Best part is when I tell people like you to give a source on that claim and you resort to more bad arguments rather than giving one.

Here you go:

It's said that Blizzard offered the first Warcraft game to Games Workshop as a game based on the Warhammer universe, but Games Workshop turned them down.

Source: here

That is the first Warcraft game, from 1994, "Orcs & Humans". There are other sources that tell that when Blizzard couldnt get the license for a Warhammer game from Games Workshop, they went on ahead since they'd already developed the game halfway.

Not that hard to believe, since Games Workshop and Warhammer existed from the '80s  - years before the 1st Warcraft game - and the resemblances between Warhammer and Warcraft (even the names, 'Warhammer' & 'Warcraft') in their looks and races are not that hard to see.

Doesn't really matter though, what was the major inspiration for Warcraft, because since then Blizzard enhanced and built further upon their franchise in their own way.

edit: and on topic ( ;-))

so I can see why Quest management thought that making Alganon resemble WoW might rub off some of WoW's popularity to their game. But what they forgot is that you better have a good game if you shamelessly make it look and feel like WoW. Players don't want to feel like they're playing a bad WoW ripoff, when they could still be playing WoW or something really new and fresh fun instead.

I wish every game would copy WoW UI because it's good but it's just common sense not to try to copy to much. Why would I want to play a game that really doesn't offer anything more than Wow, I wish they would of added some of the features from Horizons.

Originally posted by Hives

I wish every game would copy WoW UI because it's good but it's just common sense not to try to copy to much. Why would I want to play a game that really doesn't offer anything more than Wow, I wish they would of added some of the features from Horizons.

I hated the UI in Alganon. If that is WoW's UI, no thank you (never played WoW).

Originally posted by Kyleran

Copying WOW might have contributed to some gamers not playing, but had it had an entertaining story line and done well it would have had an audience, particularly from those who enjoy WOW but are bored and waiting for the next expansion.

Two things could have made the initial launch much more successful.

First, they should have obtained enough funding to make the launch rock solid. It was pretty clear it was shoved out the door too early (a common problem that far too many titles suffer from)  and secondly, it should have used an alternate (less expensive) pricing plan , say 19.95 for the client and 9.95 a month sub fee and it would have drawn more players who were more forgiving of its lack of initial content.

 

You may have already read about it by the time I'm posting this, but sufficient funding was not the problem. The investors provided them funding - much more than what they were told would be needed.

The problem, essentially, was execution and a development team whom - at least some of them - refuse to listen to the feedback given by everyone except those praising the game.

What's crazy is... for *months* before it was even listed here at mmorpg.com, people were posting on their forums that the game shared far too many similarities with WoW... the look, the interface, even the names of some locations, etc. I was among the people who stated that when they got the game listed on a site like mmorpg.com, it was going to be torn apart for the glaring similarities. We were shouted down time and again by people stating that it  was nothing like WoW.

People used ridiculously dishonest rebuttals like, "so you're saying the game having an interface makes it just like WoW? Well then every MMO out there is a WoW clone" to argue for it... and that's almost a direct quote.

Lo and behold... it's listed on mmorpg.com. It's ripped apart for being a blatant, lower quality rip-off of WoW, for all the reasons people cited before. And finally, with new leadership at the helm, it's having a make-over. Why? Because it looks too damn much like WoW. Imagine that.

It's not like anyone at QOL can, or should be, surprised by this.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by Leviathonlx

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Maybe we should give flowers to Blizzard for copying everyone else's mmo and using Game Workshop's Warhammer ip to do it ?  So the golden rule written in stone is that Blizzard can copy everyone else but noone can copy Blizzard's work ? Thats like saying, do as I say but do not do as I do.  Whatever happend to being your own company with your own ideas.  I'm not saying the makers of Alganon are right here because I'll criticize anyone who copies other people's ideas but that would almost include the entire mmo genre at the current moment.

 

People like you who spout the whole 'Blizzard copied off Warhammer to make Warcraft' thing always make me laugh. Best part is when I tell people like you to give a source on that claim and you resort to more bad arguments rather than giving one.

 

Being in denial is definitely not a good thing for gaming industry.

.... and you just proved Leviathonlx's point. Good job!

And the whole "it's okay to copy Blizzard because Blizzard copied other games" is nothing but disingenuous when left in that context. For it to work, it has to be qualified.

Here's the difference...

Blizzard took what they liked about other MMOs, such as Everquest... and then "fine-tuned" them into a form that would fit the kind of MMO they were looking to make. The resulting game, however, is entirely its own entity. No other MMO prior to WoW looked like WoW, played quite like WoW, etc. I remember playing WoW in beta and shortly after launch and telling a friend of mine who was curious about it that it had its own feel... felt more "action-oriented" than the MMOs I'd played before (FFXI, EQ, DAoC, Lineage 2, Anarchy Online, etc). It did not feel nor look like a "clone" of any of those MMOs, at all.

Several MMOs to launch *after*  WoW hit the bigtime, however, have *blatantly* tried to copy WoW, in numerous ways... Alganon being probably the best example of an attempt gone horribly wrong.
 

Originally posted by cyphers

so I can see why Quest management thought that making Alganon resemble WoW might rub off some of WoW's popularity to their game. But what they forgot is that you better have a good game if you shamelessly make it look and feel like WoW. Players don't want to feel like they're playing a bad WoW ripoff, when they could still be playing WoW or something really new and fresh fun instead.

 

Bingo. WoW already exists. If people want to play WoW... they'll play WoW.

I've always said the same of all the Lineage 2 inspired MMOs (Archlord, Last Chaos, Shaiya, etc)... Compared to Lineage 2, they all feel like cheap knock-offs... If I'm looking for a Lineage 2 type experience.. I'll just play Lineage 2.

Originally posted by WSIMike

 

Being in denial is definitely not a good thing for gaming industry.

 

.... and you just proved Leviathonlx's point. Good job!

And the whole "it's okay to copy Blizzard because Blizzard copied other games" is nothing but disingenuous when left in that context. For it to work, it has to be qualified.

He didn't say it's okay to copy Blizzard he actually said the opposite.

Is this point really being argued? Are you actually saying Blizzard didn't borrow (heavily) from the concept and art of Warhammer? Really?

You don't have to prove something when it's completely obvious. Did we need confirmation that alganon was a direct rip off of WOW, before we knew it was? No It was blatantly obvious, just as it's blatantly obvious both Warcraft and Starcraft were heavily influenced by Warhammer and 40k.

Originally posted by pencilrick

Hey, if WOW (Blizzard) is going to sit on its behind and take its sweet time on getting out expansions, then someone ought to copy WOW.  WOW players need NEW CONTENT.  Hear that BLIZZ?  NEW CONTENT!

And if another game delivers, then so be it.

Well, the amount of features, innovations, and content Blizzard pumps out is just sad, compared to how large their development team is. Well, WoW never innovates, so I guess thats not news. 

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by pencilrick

Hey, if WOW (Blizzard) is going to sit on its behind and take its sweet time on getting out expansions, then someone ought to copy WOW.  WOW players need NEW CONTENT.  Hear that BLIZZ?  NEW CONTENT!

And if another game delivers, then so be it.

Well, the amount of features, innovations, and content Blizzard pumps out is just sad, compared to how large their development team is. Well, WoW never innovates, so I guess thats not news. 

They don't need to innovate. All they have to do is continue to *evolve* what has kept millions upon millions of players subscribed to World of Warcraft. But it will be interesting to see what they do with their new MMO. As for Alganon, I wish them all the best, but at this point it doesn't look good.

Yep, I agree. They're king of the hill with WoW at the moment, so Blizzard doesn't have to innovate, just to maintain their IP and position.

Unfortunately, that kind of success leads to 'Electronic Arts' behaviour and the weakness you also see in other big successful companies: they become complacent, afraid to take any risks or change in fear of breaking the golden formula that gave them their success. Plus, with their success Blizzard hired a lot of other people, I'm wondering how many people of the teams that stood at the base of Blizzards success (Starcraft, Warcraft 3, WoW 'vanilla') still remain. With the hiring of such large numbers of new other people the overall mindset and original talent within Blizzard might have changed as well.

So Quest wasn't that far off with trying to take a piece of that WoW playerbase cake. They just went at it the wrong way, but if they can get the art design and bad gameplay sorted out - and not try to 'be' WoWish and find their own niche -, then who knows. But there are other MMO's who'll make a better chance contending with WoW's position.

Of course, it'll be interesting to see if Blizzard hasn't lost their magic touch completely when they make more info public about their other MMO.

This must seem like Deja vu to Mr. Allen; and not in the good way either.

I do not know how many of you remember the direction of the original Horizons (links seemed to have disappeared), but it was a vast seamless world with many more races in a  diametrically opposed factional system ex. Angels vs Demons etc. than what Horizons (now called Istaria) turned into. Really it is a shame that the original vision that Mr. Allen had for what became Horizons, was not retooled and used to create what that world.

And if I recall correctly, Mr. Allen's ideas were sketched out and he was only briefly involved with Horizons, having been ousted and replaced by David Bowman (of AC2 infamy) So, the debacle that Horizons became was due not to Mr. Allen, but the investors and new CEO, Mr. Bowman. The resulting bankruptcy and reorganization was another story in itself and well worth reading up on. The point here is clarification for some people who seem ready to cast a shadow of "failure" on Mr. Allen without a fuller background.

Now with regard to the Alganon debacle, it has been remarked that Mr. Smart  was an investor who may have been one also pushing for a quick release. If so, one has to wonder if any "failure"  can be somewhat attributed to impatient investors and an easily swayed board of director's or some other self-serving purpose; the technology developed for Alganon alone is fairly valuable with potential application for other games, as I analyzed it from the material released months ago. One might postulate that Mr. Smart is, well smart, at least with regard to work politics, and controlling resources, or so it deems to have turned out. Now, if the game improves, so be it and accolades to those who contributed to the success. if, on the other hand, it falters and closes down well, draw your own conclusions. Then don't be so hasty to shovel all the blame on the original designers' shoulders. there would, in that instance be plenty of other shoulders to bear the burden too.

The problem lays not with the copying of WOW.

The problem lays when you copy techniques without having access to the same resources as Blizzard has.

There are masses of Blizzard techniques to be copied (and vice versa). They just need to be integrated within your game in an original way.

2 examples:

The new LFG tool - with a twist - could have been used in assembling crews in a ST MMO (instead of using dumb NPC's).

Joining scenarios from anywhere didn't work in WAR (because of lack of cross servers), but are a succes in WOW.

It's all a question of money and taking the time to analyse things through.

---

@SaintViktor and other myth believers ....: World of Warcraft is as far from Warhammer TT as Warhammer TT stood from Chainmail.

Chainmail was already in production in 1971 and was a fantasy medieval miniatures wargame made by (late) D&D author GaryGygax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainmail_(game)

Other notorious fantasy wargames were Swords and Sorcery (1978) and Middle Earth -  War of the Rings (SPI - 1977).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulations_Publications to see the real founder of "world of warcraft": James F Dunnigan back in the 60's and 70's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_SPI_games

Warhammer didn't even exist until the mid 80's and was considered a poor man's copy at the time it launched.

-----

Not ONE official source - both from Games Workshop as from Silicon & Synapse  (the name that the company held before becoming Blizzard in 1994) mentions ANY contacts between the two companies. The blurry website source that would mention this is even speaking of "Blizzard" in 1992,  while the name Blizzard wasn't even invented before 1994.

So it is clear there were no official contacts and ideas to build one upon the other, although Mark Morhaime mentioned numurous times they were influenced by D&D and of course the work of Garry Gygax for their Warcraft series in RTS mode.(see history facts above).

Truth be told and history be known !!!!!

The ironic thing about copying WoW's UI as closely as Alganon did, is that pretty much every serious WoW player spends a lot of time tweaking addons to completely change WoW's UI into something more functional.

The unit frames at the top, buttons at the bottom design (and I know it pre-dates WoW, but if you see a game using that style, trust me, they copied WoW, not Asheron's Call or any other pre-2004 game) just isn't that good. It drags your eyes' focus all over the place, you want all of the critical UI elements close together, and in a place where you can easily flick your eyes between them and what's going on in the world. That's why so many popular UI redesigns for WoW have both the button bar and the unit frames at the bottom of the screen. Watch the game, glance down to check your UI, glance back up at the game.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by Leviathonlx

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Maybe we should give flowers to Blizzard for copying everyone else's mmo and using Game Workshop's Warhammer ip to do it ?  So the golden rule written in stone is that Blizzard can copy everyone else but noone can copy Blizzard's work ? Thats like saying, do as I say but do not do as I do.  Whatever happend to being your own company with your own ideas.  I'm not saying the makers of Alganon are right here because I'll criticize anyone who copies other people's ideas but that would almost include the entire mmo genre at the current moment.

 

People like you who spout the whole 'Blizzard copied off Warhammer to make Warcraft' thing always make me laugh. Best part is when I tell people like you to give a source on that claim and you resort to more bad arguments rather than giving one.

 

Being in denial is definitely not a good thing for gaming industry.

 

Neither is endless hatred directed at the game that brought millions and millions of new players into the MMO market...

Just because you have a lot of something does not mean the something is good.  I could go to Olive Garden and get a metric ton of decent food, or a real restaurant and get a realistic sized portion of amazing food.

I remember a time when the players were the least things you had to worry about in an MMO.  Thanks to the aforementioned game, the players are

1.  The most talked about problem.

2.  The greatest threat to the future of the genre.

I long wondered if the stereotype that most Americans are stupid was true.  The fact that the majority want what WoW is, has proven this fact to me.  WoW is 100% for the stupid and/or lazy.  It used to be about FANTASY, and having an adventure.  Not it's about getting another +1 strength for clicking a button.  Maybe tomorrow I'll click the button again and choose +1 con this time.

You cannot deny the fact that with every patch in WoW has gotten more players.  Also note that with every patch it is less and less about fantasy and more and more about getting gear, and making the game so easy you can roll your face across your keyboard and profit.  No matter if it's a game or counting bottles of soda in a 6 pack, not every person will make it to the finish line.  The only way to ensure that every living soul that plays your game will see all of it's content is to make sure a representative for your game is there doing it for them.  Even if the game is so easy all you go is log in and click once and win the game, someone will fail at this task.  In an effort to bring more people in, IE. get more money, they are making this less and less of a video game.  EVERYTHING that is fun in life has challenge associated with it.  Hiking, snowboarding, baseball, think of ANYTHING you do besides sitting on your bum and you will realize it all takes some talent or is challenging in some respects to do.  THIS IS LIFE, you will not circumvent it no matter how hard you try in a video game.

Original WoW, did A LOT of things correct.  Then again the game was aimed at gamers, or what were gamers at the time.  They chose to abandon their player base, and most of Blizzard North, for money.  I consider WoW a financial success but a gaming failure.  No game in the history of games has degenerated the genre, or the term fantasy for that matter, more than this game.

Originally posted by AOCtester

There are plenty of players who will play a copy of WOW.  Alganon is not a copy of WOW.  Cause if you are gonna copy WOW then you need to have top quality game development team + very good overall support.  That is something no other MMO game company is able to produce atm.  Thats why WOW is played by millions - They all left other games that had alot of bugs and huge technical problems that overshadowed the fun of playing a game.

Do you just make things up?

The main draw to WoW was people from other markets whom were not MMO gamers. Before WOW the MMO market was still pretty damn small. Shit i cant even remeber what I was playing right before I tried WoW, Shadowbane maybe? Anyhow, people were drawn to WoW because of the Title and Company, not because it was some superior product, because quite frankly, post beta WoW got bad reviews, most current MMO'rs at the time wouldn't even play it and for the first six months it was a broken POS.

So please quit talking out of your a$$. If you even knew what you were talking about you wouldnt mention technical problems cause the first 6-10 months of WoW was nothing but technical grief. You can ask anyone who played on Mourning or any other server who crashed and crashed..

Originally posted by gauge2k3

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by Leviathonlx

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Maybe we should give flowers to Blizzard for copying everyone else's mmo and using Game Workshop's Warhammer ip to do it ?  So the golden rule written in stone is that Blizzard can copy everyone else but noone can copy Blizzard's work ? Thats like saying, do as I say but do not do as I do.  Whatever happend to being your own company with your own ideas.  I'm not saying the makers of Alganon are right here because I'll criticize anyone who copies other people's ideas but that would almost include the entire mmo genre at the current moment.

 

People like you who spout the whole 'Blizzard copied off Warhammer to make Warcraft' thing always make me laugh. Best part is when I tell people like you to give a source on that claim and you resort to more bad arguments rather than giving one.

 

Being in denial is definitely not a good thing for gaming industry.

 

Neither is endless hatred directed at the game that brought millions and millions of new players into the MMO market...

 

Just because you have a lot of something does not mean the something is good.  I could go to Olive Garden and get a metric ton of decent food, or a real restaurant and get a realistic sized portion of amazing food.

I remember a time when the players were the least things you had to worry about in an MMO.  Thanks to the aforementioned game, the players are

1.  The most talked about problem.

2.  The greatest threat to the future of the genre.

 

I long wondered if the stereotype that most Americans are stupid was true.  The fact that the majority want what WoW is, has proven this fact to me.  WoW is 100% for the stupid and/or lazy.  It used to be about FANTASY, and having an adventure.  Not it's about getting another +1 strength for clicking a button.  Maybe tomorrow I'll click the button again and choose +1 con this time.

You cannot deny the fact that with every patch in WoW has gotten more players.  Also note that with every patch it is less and less about fantasy and more and more about getting gear, and making the game so easy you can roll your face across your keyboard and profit.  No matter if it's a game or counting bottles of soda in a 6 pack, not every person will make it to the finish line.  The only way to ensure that every living soul that plays your game will see all of it's content is to make sure a representative for your game is there doing it for them.  Even if the game is so easy all you go is log in and click once and win the game, someone will fail at this task.  In an effort to bring more people in, IE. get more money, they are making this less and less of a video game.  EVERYTHING that is fun in life has challenge associated with it.  Hiking, snowboarding, baseball, think of ANYTHING you do besides sitting on your bum and you will realize it all takes some talent or is challenging in some respects to do.  THIS IS LIFE, you will not circumvent it no matter how hard you try in a video game.

 

Original WoW, did A LOT of things correct.  Then again the game was aimed at gamers, or what were gamers at the time.  They chose to abandon their player base, and most of Blizzard North, for money.  I consider WoW a financial success but a gaming failure.  No game in the history of games has degenerated the genre, or the term fantasy for that matter, more than this game.

Well, oddly enough I agree with much of your above. But that doesn't change the reality that we face.  Blizzard has demonstrated the methods to make HUGE amounts of money. That makes their share holders very, VERY happy.  Which of course, is one of their main objectives.  Making MMO's is a rather difficult operation(thousands of factors have to be juggled). Making a fun MMO is even more difficult.  Making one that is fun and long term profitable... Even more difficult(I'm half tempted to say damn near impossible...). When all is said and done, World of Warcraft is an entertaining game(for many people) all the way to level cap.

Yes, its an endless gear chase hamster wheel. But thats typical of these types of games.  No, many elements of the end game aren't nearly as difficult as they once were.  But that does keep larger numbers of people subscribed(see hamster wheel, and happy share holders comment).  Those who bewail the passing of the age of the Sand Box, either have lost track of one of the main reasons dev's/corps do this(maximal ROI)  or they are looking at that past with seriously rose colored glasses.

I started in UO(pre Tremmel). It demonstrated the traits we've seen in just about every sand box since that time. Give people freedom within a game system, and watch the ganking and griefing get out of hand.  The demographics for such games have seriously dropped since that time. Games that become havens for gankers and griefers seriously niche themselves in the western markets.  Thats one of the reasons that theme park games are now so popular.  One can call such people pansies or CareBears, but the fact remains that they really out number those looking for sand box games.  Blizzard has demonstrated the profits to be had from doing a theme park game right.  The rest as they say is history.

Which is why I say the original WoW advanced the genre, while subsequent patches and expansions started to degreade not only the game, but the genre itself.  I am a personal fan of the sandbox idea with theme park like content.  The trick is in the implementation.

The arguement about what I am pointing out goes beyond theme park or sandbox.  It is also WAY beyond people touting gear and how elite they are.  This genre used to be about adventure and being able to leave your world and enter a fantasy realm where you can escape for however long you have.  It wasn't about gear, or about being elite.  It certainly wasn't hand fed garbage every log in either.

As far as your argument about publishers and shareholders.  That is correct.  But they are the ones failing themselves.  They assume they have to spend millions upon millions to compete, and also need to have subs in the millions to be a success.  This is simply not true.  A decent profit should be considered a success for them, but it is not.  It's odd that, for the most part, investors like a sure bet.  But man do they love playing the lottery with MMO's.  I'm a small time game developer, ever try talking to a publisher who doesn't play games.  The first questions were "how can this game be like diablo?" and now "how can this game be like WoW?".  They have no concept of the game industry, it's players, or the genre.  This is why I say the publishers are failing themselves.  Do some research grab some polls from people NOT PLAYING WoW!  WoW has that market cornered, try to grab the other corners of the market.  I don't understand why that is such a hard concept.  Investors are fighting for scraps when there is a banquet across the street.  Sure there isn't as much food, but it's still more than the scraps you spend way to much on.

It is because of this I continue to support independent game developers, like with MO, even if they fail, at least they are trying to not give us the same degenerated crap.

EDIT: to specify again, I don't like sandbox games.  I was just using MO as an example for someone who is at least trying.

You can copy the game WoW, but you can't have the same Media hype.

Never have I seen so much talk about a  MMORPG like with WoW in Media. If it wasn't for that I don't think it have 11 million.

No other game can have 11 million without help from Media.

Blizzard was smart. With help from Media they could brainwash people until they fall for it.

Originally posted by Fuggo

You can copy the game WoW, but you can't have the same Media hype.

Never have I seen so much talk about a  MMORPG like with WoW in Media. If it wasn't for that I don't think it have 11 million.

No other game can have 11 million without help from Media.

Blizzard was smart. With help from Media they could brainwash people until they fall for it.

Replace the word "media" with resources.

Resources that cover all aspects of game design and game publishing.

From excellent "tight" responsive controls of the avatar up to the end marketing of the final product.

It is called having the resources. Media and marketing is just one tiny part of it.

And yes you can't media hype "shit". Not with a monthly subscription based game for almost 6 years.

That was proven many many times these last years.

Hatred ? First of all I don't hate anyone. Second of all, just becuase people don't drink the Blizzard kool-aid doesn't mean we hate. People saying others hate WoW just because they do not agree with their methods is just an obvious attempt to get us off the facts like all fanboys do. Its a fact, Blizzard copies everyone else's work and the makers of Alganon are no better. Stop copying WoW! (Do the fanboys feel much better now ? )

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Hatred ? First of all I don't hate anyone. Second of all, just becuase people don't drink the Blizzard kool-aid doesn't mean we hate. People saying others hate WoW just because they do not agree with their methods is just an obvious attempt to get us off the facts like all fanboys do. Its a fact, Blizzard copies everyone else's work and the makers of Alganon are no better. Stop copying WoW! (Do the fanboys feel much better now ? )

Sure Blizzard copied some prior games. So? They have demonstrated that not only can they do it, but they can make it more polished and more fun for more people for a longer period of time.  They are well past the 5 year mark now and still have millions upon millions of subscribers.  Of course many others have attempted to copy them. But they lack the resources to do the job effectively. That fact is obvious from their poor retention numbers. Its not a matter of drinking the Kool Aid( I'll leave that for those who support the neo cons and neo libs... ^^) its a practical matter of reality and numbers. Like it or not, the only threat to WoW is Blizzard at this point in time.  QoL simply didn't have the resources to throw at the various problems that Blizzard does, and it shows.  I still wish them all the best, but its not looking good.