Sanya Weathers's MMO Underbelly: Progress In Open Chat?

 You say you get annoyed by people who say things like "Nvidia's Gay" or "Man that's gay" or something similar and I find you to be ignorant for that. If you are a writer, you should know that definitions of words are not set in stone, meanings change through their usage.  Gay use to mean happy, then it use to mean being homosexual, now in the generation that I grew up in (I'm 20 now) gay was always used as a word just to mean something that's was lame or stupid. "Man I paid $4000 for that motorcycle and the dang clutch broke the next day", "Awww dude that's gay". 

People who want to argue about people's word usage are just being ignorant themselves.  People are not required to follow your strict rules for word usage. Based on this article, I'm surprised you don't get upset every time you read a book and see the writer using personification... "The tree whispered to me as I walked by, almost as if it felt my pain. "..."Ahaha trees can't talk! what a ignornant fool!

Now while I personally may not use the N word myself I don't get all upset when I see someone else use it. If you pay attention, you will notice that it is used a lot more commonly even in the real world, not just in anonymous chat.  While it may be ironic or anyoxymoron, that cause is due to LESS racism, not more. Black (I say black, because all my black friends in real life hate being called african american. I quote "I'm not from africa! I was born and raised here in america, I am american!") people have always referred to each other like that, but as younger black kids make more white friends their white friends start to use it as well, and it becomes less and less taboo every day. 

Well, if you believe MMO gamers are getting better, you more of an optimist than I. And it's not just the gamers as well. I had a trusted friend relay a story to me of a conversation between a Mortal Online Dev and a member of a large guild following that game about some norwegian chocloate balls that were referred to a "N" balls.

Was I shocked? No. Not even when I was told the devs boss was alerted to this and did nothing. I decided, though, that I wouldn't be playing MO from that day on and have since stopped updating the forum here with any news. I'm not naive enough to believe that every dev team doesn't have at least one rascist person on it. But when that person opens their mouth, real or virtual, and it is brought to the attention of their seniors and all that happens is a *shrug*...

Hah - Kalgaraz is either brillantly trolling the article or brilliantly whiffing on the point.  More posts, if they come, should decide which is correct

The explosion of blog and blog-type sites and their posting communities have softened my contempt for MMOG chats, as they are amateur hour compared to some of the real-world boards and chats.

Stick around in LotRO chat long enough and you will find some gems of the other sort too...but overall it *is* the most polite and mature community out there; which is why a lot of us prefer it even though the game has some flaws. It's the first time since old EQ/DAoC that I have actually been leaving chat tabs open.

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

I don't agree. Taking a word that began as derogatory and then using it in casual conversation without the associated prejudice does not "desensitize" the word. Intent is important, but perception is everything. If we want to be heard, if we want open communication, then we need to do our best to not use emotionally-charged, derogatory words that could be misconstrued. The examples you're using are poor, because they imply people who know each other well enough to know that poor word choices don't mean they are bad people at heart. I agree with Sanya. Words ARE powerful, and they should be chosen carefully.

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

 

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

If you actually understood "other people's cultures"...and knew the shit they had to suffer through with those words...you wouldn't be using them. That understanding you are trying to bring up is a two way street. You want respect, you give respect. I know plenty of places down here in Dallas that you as a 20 y/o white kid, if you said the N word you'd be dead in a matter of seconds. No matter how cool, or down you thought you were.

Some words still have deep roots in old meanings and despite what you may see on MTV or other television, it's not how the real world works.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

 

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

If you actually understood "other people's cultures"...and knew the shit they had to suffer through with those words...you wouldn't be using them. That understanding you are trying to bring up is a two way street. You want respect, you give respect. I know plenty of places down here in Dallas that you as a 20 y/o white kid, if you said the N word you'd be dead in a matter of seconds. No matter how cool, or down you thought you were.

Some words still have deep roots in old meanings and despite what you may see on MTV or other television, it's not how the real world works.

I'd be dead because those people are ignorant. Slavery is over, get over it.  It's perfectly acceptable to use the nigger where I live. Black people use to in reference to other black people. White people just it when referring to their black friends, and even black people use it when referring to their white friends. Nigger these days is seemly another word for "Dawg" or "homie" or whatever buddy word you want to replace it with.

Time for you to enter the real world and grow up. Oh and I love that comment "What they had to suffer through" I doubt there is a black person alive today (in the USA at least) that they themselves were ever slaves. The funny thing is I've never seen a black person ever use this argument. It's always a white person making that arguement. Most black people just want to let it go, but there is always some white person who think they are politically correct and being the whole worlds hero by making a big fuss over it and bringing it back into the light.

 

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

 

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

If you actually understood "other people's cultures"...and knew the shit they had to suffer through with those words...you wouldn't be using them. That understanding you are trying to bring up is a two way street. You want respect, you give respect. I know plenty of places down here in Dallas that you as a 20 y/o white kid, if you said the N word you'd be dead in a matter of seconds. No matter how cool, or down you thought you were.

Some words still have deep roots in old meanings and despite what you may see on MTV or other television, it's not how the real world works.

 

I'd be dead because those people are ignorant. Slavery is over, get over it.  It's perfectly acceptable to use the nigger where I live. Black people use to in reference to other black people. White people just it when referring to their black friends, and even black people use it when referring to their white friends. Nigger these days is seemly another word for "Dawg" or "homie" or whatever buddy word you want to replace it with.

Time for you to enter the real world and grow up.

And thanks for making my point. You only preach "understanding" when it benefits your point. You don't truly under "Understanding". If you did, you'd understand why some people haven't "gotten over it".

What you say/use in your group or click of friends doesn't mean it right to use it with people you don't know. If I walked up to you on the street and said "Hey dumbass, what time is it?" I don't think you'd be too happy about it. By the way you're responding here I'm pretty sure you'd want to try to square up on me. Well, I call my friends that all the time, though. So it's ok to call you that out of the blue having never met you, right?

Anyway, I remember when I was 20. Noone could tell me what to do or see reason, and I'm not going to continue to try that with you. Get some more living under your belt, go up to some random black person you never met and call him that. Then, if you're still around, we can chat later.

Peace.

Edit: Oh, and it had nothing to do with slavery, my point that is. There are plenty of people still around who were alive in the 1960s during the Civil Rights movement who clearly remember and have no use for the word. All these black friends that you have...why don't you go over and sit down with one of them's grandparents and ask them how they feel about it. I bet you'd find more than a few that aren't happy with it.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

 

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

If you actually understood "other people's cultures"...and knew the shit they had to suffer through with those words...you wouldn't be using them. That understanding you are trying to bring up is a two way street. You want respect, you give respect. I know plenty of places down here in Dallas that you as a 20 y/o white kid, if you said the N word you'd be dead in a matter of seconds. No matter how cool, or down you thought you were.

Some words still have deep roots in old meanings and despite what you may see on MTV or other television, it's not how the real world works.

 

I'd be dead because those people are ignorant. Slavery is over, get over it.  It's perfectly acceptable to use the nigger where I live. Black people use to in reference to other black people. White people just it when referring to their black friends, and even black people use it when referring to their white friends. Nigger these days is seemly another word for "Dawg" or "homie" or whatever buddy word you want to replace it with.

Time for you to enter the real world and grow up.

And thanks for making my point. You only preach "understanding" when it benefits your point. You don't truly under "Understanding". If you did, you'd understand why some people haven't "gotten over it".

What you say/use in your group or click of friends doesn't mean it right to use it with people you don't know. If I walked up to you on the street and said "Hey dumbass, what time is it?" I don't think you'd be too happy about it. By the way you're responding here I'm pretty sure you'd want to try to square up on me. Well, I call my friends that all the time, though. So it's ok to call you that out of the blue having never met you, right?

Anyway, I remember when I was 20. Noone could tell me what to do or see reason, and I'm not going to continue to try that with you. Get some more living under your belt, go up to some random black person you never met and call him that. Then, if you're still around, we can chat later.

Peace.

If you walked up to me and said wasup dumbass, I'd probally just ignore it and be like "wasup". I'm not going to make some big deal about it. I hate people like you that always wants to taken offense to shit and start a big argument over nothing. That's why we have so much violence in the world today. It's not like being called a dumbass is going to ruin my day or make my life any less enjoyable.

"go up to some random black person you never met and call him that. Then, if you're still around, we can chat later."

Right, when someone walks up to me and calls me a dumbass, it's going to ruin my life so much that I'm going to pull out a glock 9 and "cap yo ass" (it that the correct slang way of saying it these days?). 
 

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

 

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

If you actually understood "other people's cultures"...and knew the shit they had to suffer through with those words...you wouldn't be using them. That understanding you are trying to bring up is a two way street. You want respect, you give respect. I know plenty of places down here in Dallas that you as a 20 y/o white kid, if you said the N word you'd be dead in a matter of seconds. No matter how cool, or down you thought you were.

Some words still have deep roots in old meanings and despite what you may see on MTV or other television, it's not how the real world works.

 

I'd be dead because those people are ignorant. Slavery is over, get over it.  It's perfectly acceptable to use the nigger where I live. Black people use to in reference to other black people. White people just it when referring to their black friends, and even black people use it when referring to their white friends. Nigger these days is seemly another word for "Dawg" or "homie" or whatever buddy word you want to replace it with.

Time for you to enter the real world and grow up.

And thanks for making my point. You only preach "understanding" when it benefits your point. You don't truly under "Understanding". If you did, you'd understand why some people haven't "gotten over it".

What you say/use in your group or click of friends doesn't mean it right to use it with people you don't know. If I walked up to you on the street and said "Hey dumbass, what time is it?" I don't think you'd be too happy about it. By the way you're responding here I'm pretty sure you'd want to try to square up on me. Well, I call my friends that all the time, though. So it's ok to call you that out of the blue having never met you, right?

Anyway, I remember when I was 20. Noone could tell me what to do or see reason, and I'm not going to continue to try that with you. Get some more living under your belt, go up to some random black person you never met and call him that. Then, if you're still around, we can chat later.

Peace.

 

If you walked up to me and said wasup dumbass, I'd probally just ignore it and be like "wasup". I'm not going to make some big deal about it. I hate people like you that always wants to taken offense to shit and start a big argument over nothing. That's why we have so much violence in the world today. It's not like being called a dumbass is going to ruin my day or make my life any less enjoyable.

Well, if that's how you are, then good for you. But you need to realize that many more people aren't. And with that realization you should appreciate that it does noone any good to keep "pressing buttons" by saying such things.

Your assumption about me "taken offense" is off, but believe what you want. 8 years in the army pretty much left me without a politically correct filter on my mouth but I haven't lost the one in my mind. Talking in that manner around your friends is your business, sure. But talking in that manner in public is irresponsible at best, life threatening at worst.

You can continue to hate me bro, mistakeningly thinking I'm trying to "keep you down" or "repress your freedom of speech". I don't hate you, though. I just don't want to hear about you on the evening news.

Originally posted by kalagaraz

 You say you get annoyed by people who say things like "Nvidia's Gay" or "Man that's gay" or something similar and I find you to be ignorant for that. If you are a writer, you should know that definitions of words are not set in stone, meanings change through their usage.  Gay use to mean happy, then it use to mean being homosexual, now in the generation that I grew up in (I'm 20 now) gay was always used as a word just to mean something that's was lame or stupid. "Man I paid $4000 for that motorcycle and the dang clutch broke the next day", "Awww dude that's gay". 

People who want to argue about people's word usage are just being ignorant themselves.  People are not required to follow your strict rules for word usage. Based on this article, I'm surprised you don't get upset every time you read a book and see the writer using personification... "The tree whispered to me as I walked by, almost as if it felt my pain. "..."Ahaha trees can't talk! what a ignornant fool!

Now while I personally may not use the N word myself I don't get all upset when I see someone else use it. If you pay attention, you will notice that it is used a lot more commonly even in the real world, not just in anonymous chat.  While it may be ironic or anyoxymoron, that cause is due to LESS racism, not more. Black (I say black, because all my black friends in real life hate being called african american. I quote "I'm not from africa! I was born and raised here in america, I am american!") people have always referred to each other like that, but as younger black kids make more white friends their white friends start to use it as well, and it becomes less and less taboo every day. 

Very well put so I'll add a little more perspective to this mental health lesson......
I can say/write “bla bla bla” anyone can decide to be offended by it. And while some can reply with “well if it's a commonly known offensive statement then it's acceptable, therefore it's right” I can and will disagree. In real life if what someone says leading to another hurting or killing them over it, it still is perfectly safe for someone to exercise freedom of speech and opinion and not safe to hurt or kill. On that note I argue that you try to control what is truly harmful and what is not....and do not confuse the two lest we live less and less with freedoms we can “live” with.

Now as far as the Internet goes I believe it should have a freedom to express what people want...computers have an on and off switch and everyones disposal, moderators can mod there own property etc.. Having a freedom to express is not a “wrong” thing, sure it “can” be distasteful but that remains a matter of perception and we all know there are/can be billions of different ones. The line should be at stopping what is really harmful (and that's in a physical realm) for in the mental arena harming others is actually impossible for others to do. If someone (Bob) is mentally harmed by what someone states then “Bob” should maybe spend some time in reflection or time on someones couch rather than pointing a finger and claiming “they” made me feel this way...which is one of the biggest cop outs in this day and age.
Arguing that because something is common or a common practice/belief can be rebutted with, it was once a common belief that the world was flat..but we were wrong..OR..It was once common to think that the earth was the center of the universe..but we were wrong... In our history people have been killed for stating fact that challenged common or “popular belief”.....I for one prefer fact over fiction in this case.

And now to as this relates to a game chat system???? isn't there an ignore option???? Ya...it really is that simple.

For my own part, while I do not believe in restriction of free speech, I do believe in good taste and common courtesy.  Use of the "n" word shows neither, in my opinion.

Still, I have the ability and the option - which I frequently exercise - to utilize the /ignore command.  This command is the least used, most overlooked blessing in any type of internet chat (as is "mute" in ventrilo).  If what I read or hear offends me (and the use of slurs and epithets does offend me personally), then I have the freedom to choose not to read or hear it.

Voltaire said two things that I believe apply here:

1)  Men are equal; it is not birth but virtue that makes the difference.

and

2)  I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it.  (I just am probably hoping that you are foolish enough to say it in front of someone who will take the opportunity to reveal your bigotry to you in a very tangible - and possibly physical - way ;P )

My reaction to the person using the n-word was to simply hit ignore. As this thread is demonstrating, anyone using the word in casual conversation cannot be reasoned with or educated, whereas most of the people using 'gay' as an insult can usually be taught better manners. If not, well, the ignore function doesn't expire if you don't use it right away!

There's just no point in arguing with scum. Ignoring, and on private property such as an MMO server, banning, are the best options if education fails.

The only way words have power over you are if you allow those words to have that power.

Welcome to the 21st century, there's more to worry about than someone using a word beginning with an "n".

Cut the 'politically correct" crap, grow some balls ( or the female equivelant ), and grow up.

By the way, don't put Don Imus picture in your article as some sort of "example" of bigoted people ( I'm assuming this was the reason you put it there, I seen no other reason ). Because he's white and called some black girls "nappy headed hoes" is somehow reprehensible and demeaning to black people. Yet, I don't see the good Reverend Sharpton going after NWA ( Niggers With Attitude ). Everybody needs to cut the racial bullshit and get on with life. You know what my father told me when I was young? A "nigger" is not a race, it's a personality. Anyone can be a "nigger", whether they are white, black, yellow, purple, or green.

Everybody nowadays just looks for an excuse to scream "racism". Once people stop looking for it, they'll see alot less of it.

I can say anything i want. censors are there to protect, cant handle it, use em.

BubbaING Bubba LICKING Bubba SUCKING Bubba LOVING Bubba Bubba BubbaFINGERING SODOMITES!

See, that cant offend anyone. If it does, its you that has a dirty mind.

Originally posted by Sanya

My reaction to the person using the n-word was to simply hit ignore. As this thread is demonstrating, anyone using the word in casual conversation cannot be reasoned with or educated, whereas most of the people using 'gay' as an insult can usually be taught better manners. If not, well, the ignore function doesn't expire if you don't use it right away!

There's just no point in arguing with scum. Ignoring, and on private property such as an MMO server, banning, are the best options if education fails.

Given the evolution of body and mind yesterdays education sometimes is not tomorrows education. And yes arguing with "scum" is sometimes/often pointless but arguing with ignorance is always pointless. Sometimes intelligence needs time to mature, and sometimes someones opinion of what they currently believe to be mature is not intelligent.

We have entered an arena of the moral theory with this thread it seems.

Sanya, your MMO title reads MMORPG.com Columnist and your bio reads "11 year old female"?? is this acurate?? out of curiosity.

"...he lost his temper for a second and snapped, “Nvidia is gay.”

That sort of thing just irritates me no end. Yes, in many ways I am politically correct, and no, I’m not ashamed of it. See, I write for a living. Words have meaning to me. When you say someone who is physically weak “throws like a girl,” that you got a good bargain by “Jewing the seller down,” and that something contemptible is “gay,” your speech reflects at best the result of a sick, bigoted culture. At worst your speech is saying you are sick and bigoted."

I write for a living, too. Words have meaning to me, as well. However, I haven't gotten my panties in a bunch because a certain group of people decided 'gay' - a word that was commonly used in song and poetry to mean very happy - should now mean 'homosexual'. Your double standard is fascinating.

It's sick and bigoted to say someone throws like a girl? Girls don't normally throw stuff, let alone practice throwing, so most of them don't throw well. Or that's completely untrue and I am a sick bigot for daring to suggest that is the case?

And that "throws like a girl" is on the same level as ethnic slurs indicates that you might be just a bit too sensitive, Sanya.

I'm surprised that someone who writes for a living managed to lose the point of such sayings. You DID quote it, but perhaps didn't understand. At BEST it reflects the RESULT of a sick, bigoted culture. Your flippant use of the phrase "throws like a girl" does not immediately indicate you are a bigot or that you toss the N word out haphazardly. What it DOES indicate is that you have become culturally numb to the fact that phrase you are using to insult some guy, or have a laugh at his expense, involves the female gender to give it its punchline. Yes, women probably, on average, tend to throw worse than men. Okay? So what? That somehow gives you license to use an above average statistic to belittle a man and those innocent, genetically normal women who weren't physically blessed with a good throwing arm, as well? Psh... okay... I hope you're a better writer than you are a rationalizer.

Delatur, so you are saying that you've actually met a woman other than the author of the article who has found the phrase "throws like a girl" offensive?

lol I think I just saw a pig fly or was that the lure on the end of your line!

Thank you for this article. It's nice to know there are people out there with enough wisdom to understand that what they say can have an impact on others.

To the rest of you, stay ignorant, avoid complication and above all remember; your opinion is the only one that matters.
 

Great article Sanya. But you  really should have expected this sort of response from what I assume are predominately straight, white, males. Having never been disenfranchised, they have no understanding of how derogatory words belittle and disempower others. It is a way to keep the minorities " in their place". But they will never see it this way. They will claim freedom of speech, not seeing that just because you CAN say something,  doesn't mean you SHOULD say it. Words are communication, especially in the absence of visual cues.  A little sensitivty to others'  feelings won't hurt you.

I have to say, you have all proven Sanya's conclusiont that her recent experience was the exception, not the rule.

Originally posted by Senadina

Having never been disenfranchised, they have no understanding of how derogatory words belittle and disempower others. It is a way to keep the minorities " in their place".

Word. There is for sure lack of empathy from their side.

In language, context is everything.  

However, if you are white and live in a western society, you have always had the choice of which context you wish to be viewed in.

Set aside that you and your social circle are not affected by bogotry or racism.  Set aside that you have multi racial friends and family.  It doesn't matter.

If you are white, chances are you never realize the leg up that you have simply by walking into a job interview and being a certain color.  It doesn't matter that lived in a 20' foot trailer with my partents for years under the poverty line.  I still had it easy in comparison simply because I am caucasion in the USA.

As such I will only have a glimpse of the deep seated, unconcious racism that permiates even the most forward thinking of western society's institutions, let alone the blantant overt bigotry that is alive and well, but moved to the anonymous internet.

So context being everything, if you are white, remember you have had the choice all along.  The context of these words is forced upon others, regardless of what you mean by them.

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Originally posted by LynxJSA
Delatur, so you are saying that you've actually met a woman other than the author of the article who has found the phrase "throws like a girl" offensive?

---

Having known quite a few women over the years, yes, I've met a few who at least raise an eyebrow at phrases like that. I did live through the feminist movement, after all. :) And offensive might be a tad strong. Insensitive might be a better word. But let's not get hung up on one phrase, Lynx. The crux of the argument here is how we, as a species, can treat each other better if we just stop for a moment and think about where our words come from. As I've said before, intent is certainly important, but perception is at least equally important. We cannot consider ourselves worldly, or even cultured, unless we grasp that.

I have feelings but I feel no reason to wear them on my sleeve. And this doens't mean I haven't before but with age and intelligence comes wisdom and maturity...some people move at different paces I suppose. But having less freedoms in this context usually a result of more and more people finding more and more things offensive and then they want everyone else to wear their each and every individuals feelings on their sleeves as well.

I think having a simple /ignore is enough to quell the ail (for most people sound of mind that is)...there really isn't a need to have a coded multivortexed chat system that can read peoples minds and zap them before they type something or w/e.
If someone says something you don't like or find offensive...step 1 is “/ignore”...step 2 is “get over it”...step 3 is “move on to something more important rather than wallowing in a state of con-tempt over mere words”

Easily one of the most memorable days of my MMO gaming was the day I realized I could disable zone chat.  The relief from the tension alone would have been worth it, but to my surprise the immersion of the game environment increased substantially.  Done and done, it's off for good.

Guild chat = tastes great, less filling

Ken

Originally posted by jcries

Originally posted by Senadina

Having never been disenfranchised, they have no understanding of how derogatory words belittle and disempower others. It is a way to keep the minorities " in their place".

 

Word. There is for sure lack of empathy from their side.

I don't think this is the type of debate I would want to start on a gaming forum.  We can start talking about all the special rights and protections people get... and which paticular group gets none of those... but this isn't the place for it.

As to the article...

General chat is probably the first thing most people shut off.  Or use as a tool to ignore as many idiots as possible quickly.

Companies don't enforce community guide lines because of the money they lose.  Someone who worked for Mythic should know all about "we'll investage the player and take appropraite action" really means "have a nice day, but we aren't doing anything about it."

So what we need are better tools.... like the abilitty to ignore an entire account.  So that 15,000 level 1 alts on it are automaticly ignored.

The ability for that same ignore list to be accessed by all of our characters etc

The only bad part of general chat is that new people can't get help... they are either lost in the drool spam or never seen because of the volume of people who have left the channel.

I agree that certain groups in society may be a bit too sensitive to occasional careless language and would do well to just take the high road.  But one still must acknowledge the fact  that  words like these are, in absolute fact, rooted in hatred.  You can place them in any light-hearted context you like, but the histories behind these words are inheritably malicious.

Perhaps people do feel in an anonymous outlet like an MMO that this is simply slang.   These people go about peppering their guild chats and trade channels with a liberal dosage of derogatory euphemisms.  I have read a few people, in defending the use of such language,  use such phrases as "in the real world" and "it's perfectly acceptable."   They are, of course, speaking from their own perspective as if it were universally commonplace.  This seems to be a character trait many younger people share.

Let's look at this from another perspective.  Can you imagine working next to the person who says "this job is gay" or perhaps spouts off the "N" word at his place of employment as freely and confidently as he would in his favorite virtual town?   In using this language you are setting yourself up to be perceived very poorly by a large number of people.  Some of which may sign your "perfectably acceptable" and "real world"  paycheck. 

The author mentions that "words have value."   The language one uses greatly reflects on the character of the person. 

My apoligies Antarious for derailing your efforts to pull this meandering topic back on track.

~R~

I have a question for all those of you who defend the use of the word 'gay' as a pejorative (that means 'bad word'). Have you ever had a political movement, or several, focused on removing rights from you because of something you have no power to change, nor would want to change because it is a bedrock of your personality and identity? I'm guessing no. Black people have had this (c.f. slavery, Jim Crow laws, Ku Klux Clan). LGBT people still do (c.f. Proposition 8 in California, Fred Phelps and associates, etc.).

When was the last time someone tried to push you off your big pile of privilege? An Englishman in Wales will be looked askance at, but he can leave Wales. A white man in a black neighborhood may not feel safe - but a black man will find that most of the US is a 'white neighborhood'. Discrimination remains rife, and treating it like it doesn't exist is not only not the solution, it's part of the problem.

Bigotry comes in a sliding scale. It's not a binary thing, where either you're a bigot or you're not. Hell, I have my own bigotries, which I will freely admit is a bad thing. There's no difference in kind between someone who says "you throw like a girl" and a member of the Ku Klux Klan - only one in scale and direction. It's simply a question of how much energy you put into denigrating other human beings.

Firstly, let me congratulate you on correctly saying 'because he couldn’t care less'. So many of your countrymen can't seem to get the grammar of that simple statement correct.

Now, for the people arguing that definitions and acceptable usage of words change over time: Yes, the do. However these new uses and definitions are always fought against and argued against. It's the nature of evolution. Generation Y wants 'gay' to mean 'lame' but generation X find it offensive. The 2 generations argue and one of them win. Probably generation Y. By the time generation Z comes along generation X will be dieing and therefore unable to argue their case.

The main objection to 'gay' meaning 'lame' is that it implies that being 'gay', meaning homosexual, is a bad thing. The same evolution of language happened with 'lame'. It used to mean:

'Lame \Lame\, a. [Compar. Lamer; superl. Lamest.]

[OE. lame, AS. lama; akin to D. lam, G. lahm,OHG., Dan., & Sw. lam, Icel. lami, Russ. lomate to break, lomota rheumatism.]

1.
(a) Moving with pain or difficulty on account of injury, defect, or temporary obstruction of a function; as, a lame leg, arm, or muscle.
(b) To some degree disabled by reason of the imperfect action of a limb; crippled; as, a lame man. ``Lame of one leg.'' --Arbuthnot. ``Lame in both his feet.'' --2 Sam. ix. 13. ``He fell, and became lame.'' --2 Sam. iv. 4.'

Now it also means 'not good'

Language has always evolved. People have always fought against it. Life goes on.

Originally posted by Nibs
[... stuff about 'lame'...]

This is incidentally pretty denigrating of disabled people. Who, again, have more than enough problems already. Do you mean to argue that because Generation Y is too stupid to realize that using certain words is hurtful, that makes it okay? Or do you just mean to say that people who are different from you have no feelings and should be disregarded as thinking humans?

This thread is indicative of some serious problems in youth culture. Pretty much all youth culture, too, except for a few isolated enclaves. Youth must be taught the consequences of their actions, and apparently, noone has bothered to teach that the consequences of casual bigotry are, well, problematic at best.

And what's wrong with non-derogatory pejoratives? Can't we find ways to say something is bad without also saying that some of our fellow humans are?

Mindless or unthinking bigotry in phrases often comes from mindless or unthinking people, and although it's sensible to try explain to them the offense they are causing, you need to be aware you may well be unable to get through to them - but that does not make the effort worthless. If they insult or upset other players then the people running the game are absolutely right to act to prevent it happening - if something offends though, I always prefer first trying to explain what the offense was, before shouting for the cops to lock up the 'offender'. You might be able to get them to realise what they did and change their behaviour, which is surely a far better result than getting them a ban from an online game. Shout for the cops after you know persuasion won't work, not as the first reponse based on your own assumptions that you can't ever argue with 'people like that' - which is also, in the proper sense, prejudice.

Whist I'd be pretty upset at most of the examples of word usage that have been mentioned so far in this thread though, and all appear worth pursuing and arguing against, I'm concerned that there appears to be a growing belief that any of us have a 'right' NOT to be offended by what others say or think, which I'm not convinced is true at all. Also, remember that being offended on behalf of other people can sometimes of itself be patronising.

A better world would in part consist of one where people at least thought before speaking, or typing. Work towards it yourself, encourage it in others, but don't hold your breath waiting for it.

Your columns are the highlight on MMORPG.com Sanya.

I love reading them! Keep it up!

Originally posted by Senadina

Great article Sanya. But you  really should have expected this sort of response from what I assume are predominately straight, white, males. Having never been disenfranchised, they have no understanding of how derogatory words belittle and disempower others. It is a way to keep the minorities " in their place". But they will never see it this way. They will claim freedom of speech, not seeing that just because you CAN say something,  doesn't mean you SHOULD say it. Words are communication, especially in the absence of visual cues.  A little sensitivty to others'  feelings won't hurt you.

I have to say, you have all proven Sanya's conclusiont that her recent experience was the exception, not the rule.

And people who overgeneralize an entire ethnic group aren't "racist"? Because that's what you just did. Maybe I should be offended. Unfortunately, I'm laughing too much at your ignorance to be offended.

Let me explain something to you as a "straight white male". First off, there is no "white" male anymore. I'm willing to bet the "black", "brown", "yellow", and "red" male don't really exist as a "race" anymore either. You go through anyone's family tree in the 21st century and you will find the intermixing of different racial  bloodlines. The only "race" that means, or should mean, anything anymore is the "human race".

So don't try to perpetrate how "the straight white male" is somehow automatically "insensitive" because we haven't been "disenfranchised". If you really want to go there, perhaps I was "disenfranchised" when I had to pay my own way through college while other "races" were given scholoarships BECAUSE of their race ( United Negro College Fund, NAACP, etc. ).

Yet I don't blame someone of that particular racial background for using those scholarships, anymore than I blame someone being given a job because of their racial background through "affirmative action". I blame the government, and people like yourself, who continue to divide the races while proclaiming the opposite. If idiots would stop looking for "racial" bullshit in every sentence and every eye movement and every hairstyle, stop using race as a "handicap" and an excuse for why they don't have what the other guy has, maybe we COULD all just get along.

Originally posted by Zorvan

And people who overgeneralize an entire ethnic group aren't "racist"? Because that's what you just did. Maybe I should be offended. Unfortunately, I'm laughing too much at your ignorance to be offended.

Let me explain something to you as a "straight white male". First off, there is no "white" male anymore. I'm willing to bet the "black", "brown", "yellow", and "red" male don't really exist as a "race" anymore either. You go through anyone's family tree in the 21st century and you will find the intermixing of different racial  bloodlines. The only "race" that means, or should mean, anything anymore is the "human race".

So don't try to perpetrate how "the straight white male" is somehow automatically "insensitive" because we haven't been "disenfranchised". If you really want to go there, perhaps I was "disenfranchised" when I had to pay my own way through college while other "races" were given scholoarships BECAUSE of their race ( United Negro College Fund, NAACP, etc. ).

Yet I don't blame someone of that particular racial background for using those scholarships, anymore than I blame someone being given a job because of their racial background through "affirmative action". I blame the government, and people like yourself, who continue to divide the races while proclaiming the opposite. If idiots would stop looking for "racial" bullshit in every sentence and every eye movement and every hairstyle, stop using race as a "handicap" and an excuse for why they don't have what the other guy has, maybe we COULD all just get along. 

I refer you to my question above. You're one of the people I'd like to see answer that.

About race: It was a ficticious concept to begin with, even when it was invented in the 16th century to justify genocide and slavery. The concept today exists as a cultural label attached to certian genetic phenotypes within the human species - and in the minds of bigots who still use it to justify the unjustifiable.

When you can be certain that no person is ever discriminated against due to skin color, sexual orientation, gender (or even being transgendered), then you can call the various affirmative action systems unfair. Until then, you as a white, straight male, are sitting on a huge pile of privilege that makes a dragon's hoard look like pocket change. And yes, if you don't realize that you are sitting on that pile of privilege and looking down at everyone who does not, then you are insensitive. It has bupkis to do with being white, or straight, or male. It has everything to do with the side effects of having those traits, namely that you will never find yourself being inescapably persecuted or discriminated against - and Englishman can leave Wales. A white man can leave a black neighborhood. A black man cannot stop being black. A gay man cannot stop being gay. So stop acting like they can.

Originally posted by Antarious

...

Companies don't enforce community guide lines because of the money they lose.  Someone who worked for Mythic should know all about "we'll investage the player and take appropraite action" really means "have a nice day, but we aren't doing anything about it."

 

So what we need are better tools.... like the abilitty to ignore an entire account.  So that 15,000 level 1 alts on it are automaticly ignored.

 

The ability for that same ignore list to be accessed by all of our characters etc

 

The only bad part of general chat is that new people can't get help... they are either lost in the drool spam or never seen because of the volume of people who have left the channel.

One of the reasons that I continue to play Guild Wars, is because the opposite of this is true.  Once you pay the box price, Arena Net stops earning money from you (sure, they hope that you will buy add-ons for your account, but there is no guarantee) ; so they don't have to worry about losing monthly subs when they kick people for being foul-mouthed bigots.  And, actually, they may even earn more money by kicking said bigot's account--some of these players are stupid enough to buy a second account in a feeble attempt to 'get revenge' for the first account getting banned.

As for the tools that you mentioned, they already exist in GW.  when you ignore a player, it ignores all characters on the account.  Your ignore list (and your friends list) is tied to your account.

So, in general, GW maintains a fairly positive and mature general chat.  New players are frequently able to get reliable help (if you are in a populated district that is), and conversations hover around the range of 18-21y/o maturity level.

To get back to Sanya's main topic, and once again, another great article here Sanya.

Most of the situations you explained there are the norm for the majority of Guild Wars.  (At this point some of you may be thinking that this is shameless plug for GW, but honestly these are my experiences with the game)  When someone makes a stray comment like the 'Nvidia's gay' comment, people in GW are usually quick to respond about how the comment was insensitive, maybe make a joke about it, and then move on. Sure there may be a stray 'Your Mom's Gay' or something similar, but those people are usually put on ignore quickly.  And if people are being rude and abusive after being rebuked in general chat, then they get reported.  Most first offenders get a 2-3 day ban, repeat offenders get longer bans, and the most serious cases have their account revoked and their IP banned (but only after investigation by several devs; and even then, there is an appeals process).

For bugs, since in GW you don't pay a monthly fee, most people don't expect to get rewarded, or have their items restored when a bug is reported.  One might think that this would drive people to report less bugs, but the opposite happened.  Enough bugs were getting reported with high frequency through the support ticket system, that they opened an official wiki with a section for bug reporting, so repeat bug reports wouldn't clog the CS.  But, as an added bonus, even though the devs are not obligated to the players through monthly fee, items lost to bugs (which happens so infrequently, you have a better chance of getting hit by lightning) are usually restored.

As far as CS presence in GW, it happens so often that the CS/devs are not referred to by character name, but by their first names instead (although for some of the devs, this isn't fair since they used their real name as their character name).  Even though most of the Arena Net development team has stopped working on GW in favor of working on GW2, many of the devs spend time in game just to hang out and earn titles like the rest of us lowly players.

Now for the disillusionment.  The 'warm fuzzy internet' portion of GW as described above, is limited only to PvE areas.  Once a player decides to hop out of the PvE line, and set foot into the PvP portions of the game, it becomes a ruthless, gutter mouthed, solo-swagger, "join my guild or we will rape you.” game.  Basically the only way to learn PvP in GW is to make friends with a PvX player in some late-game dungeon, or just stick it out in the Random Arena until someone notices you.  And speaking of the random arena, the maturity level drops from that 18-21y/o level, down to "8y/o read the bathroom stall, and is now repeating only the swear words"

*prepares self to be called a GW fanboi*

Edit: I make it sound like there are a lot of bugs in GW, but there are relatively few nowadays.  The most serious bugs recently are tied to the monthly skill-balance changes.  When the skill balances occur, the changes to the skills sometimes breaks AI behaviour, or makes some areas of PvE unplayable becuase the AI is now godly due to skill changes intended for PvP.

Yeah, general chat can be highly amusing.  It is interesting how certain words or phrases can touch players hot buttons.

The ones that crack me up is the guys professing love for a female avatar, when more chance than not the avatar has a male player behind it.

When I was a counselor in UO we had a guild that required it 's members to use a phrase that had the word rape in it when they killed someone.  They were advised to change it  and refused.  The entire guild accounts were then banned across the 3 servers they operated on.  That was a big splash as there were some prominent accounts in it.

I agree that it has been a bit of an odd month as far as smacktalk goes.  I play EVE Online, where smacktalk is king, and I don't think I've had anyone smack in local all month.  After combat it's been "good fight" instead of "your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries".  Hell, even the hulk we caught mining in a belt in lowsec and tried to ransom didn't smack, and that was highly unusual.  (We ended up blowing him up because he wouldn't pay. :(  )

Originally posted by Auton

Originally posted by Zorvan

And people who overgeneralize an entire ethnic group aren't "racist"? Because that's what you just did. Maybe I should be offended. Unfortunately, I'm laughing too much at your ignorance to be offended.

Let me explain something to you as a "straight white male". First off, there is no "white" male anymore. I'm willing to bet the "black", "brown", "yellow", and "red" male don't really exist as a "race" anymore either. You go through anyone's family tree in the 21st century and you will find the intermixing of different racial  bloodlines. The only "race" that means, or should mean, anything anymore is the "human race".

So don't try to perpetrate how "the straight white male" is somehow automatically "insensitive" because we haven't been "disenfranchised". If you really want to go there, perhaps I was "disenfranchised" when I had to pay my own way through college while other "races" were given scholoarships BECAUSE of their race ( United Negro College Fund, NAACP, etc. ).

Yet I don't blame someone of that particular racial background for using those scholarships, anymore than I blame someone being given a job because of their racial background through "affirmative action". I blame the government, and people like yourself, who continue to divide the races while proclaiming the opposite. If idiots would stop looking for "racial" bullshit in every sentence and every eye movement and every hairstyle, stop using race as a "handicap" and an excuse for why they don't have what the other guy has, maybe we COULD all just get along. 

 

I refer you to my question above. You're one of the people I'd like to see answer that.

About race: It was a ficticious concept to begin with, even when it was invented in the 16th century to justify genocide and slavery. The concept today exists as a cultural label attached to certian genetic phenotypes within the human species - and in the minds of bigots who still use it to justify the unjustifiable.

When you can be certain that no person is ever discriminated against due to skin color, sexual orientation, gender (or even being transgendered), then you can call the various affirmative action systems unfair. Until then, you as a white, straight male, are sitting on a huge pile of privilege that makes a dragon's hoard look like pocket change. And yes, if you don't realize that you are sitting on that pile of privilege and looking down at everyone who does not, then you are insensitive. It has bupkis to do with being white, or straight, or male. It has everything to do with the side effects of having those traits, namely that you will never find yourself being inescapably persecuted or discriminated against - and Englishman can leave Wales. A white man can leave a black neighborhood. A black man cannot stop being black. A gay man cannot stop being gay. So stop acting like they can.

Sorry, but your the one who needs to take a step back.

So everything is so "unfair" to others that aren't white?

I think Obama pretty much blew your argument out of the water. Everytime you or somebody else wants to pull the "I'm being held back because of my race" card, I'm going to refer you to Obama. Or maybe Colin Powell. Or Clarence Thomas. Or any of the others who somehow managed to do what you apparently think can't be done.

And affirmative action does not make things equal. It in fact widens the divide and causes more resentment.

And if I'm so privileged, why aren't I making 100k-200k-1 million dollars a year unlike many people of other racial backgrounds? It couldn't possibly be because those people put in the time and effort to get where they are instead of listening to how "held down" they were, could it?  I mean, everything is handed to us "white folk", ain't it?

You make me laugh and cry at the same time, dude. Wake up and join the future.

Originally posted by Senadina

Great article Sanya. But you  really should have expected this sort of response from what I assume are predominately straight, white, males. Having never been disenfranchised, they have no understanding of how derogatory words belittle and disempower others. It is a way to keep the minorities " in their place". But they will never see it this way. They will claim freedom of speech, not seeing that just because you CAN say something,  doesn't mean you SHOULD say it. Words are communication, especially in the absence of visual cues.  A little sensitivty to others'  feelings won't hurt you.

I have to say, you have all proven Sanya's conclusiont that her recent experience was the exception, not the rule.

 Really had to put some stress on the brain cells to figure out these comments come from straight white males? I mean really ... black ... gay ... women ... other minorities, are more than likely ruled out right? How about you add ignorant to it next time so you don't lump some of the decent white straight males in with the trash you want to make us all out to be .... thanks.

Originally posted by Zorvan

Sorry, but your the one who needs to take a step back.

So everything is so "unfair" to others that aren't white?

I think Obama pretty much blew your argument out of the water. Everytime you or somebody else wants to pull the "I'm being held back because of my race" card, I'm going to refer you to Obama. Or maybe Colin Powell. Or Clarence Thomas. Or any of the others who somehow managed to do what you apparently think can't be done.

And affirmative action does not make things equal. It in fact widens the divide and causes more resentment.

And if I'm so privileged, why aren't I making 100k-200k-1 million dollars a year unlike many people of other racial backgrounds? It couldn't possibly be because those people put in the time and effort to get where they are instead of listening to how "held down" they were, could it?  I mean, everything is handed to us "white folk", ain't it?

You make me laugh and cry at the same time, dude. Wake up and join the future.

With one hand you hold up Obama and Powell and the rest, who have accomplished what they have not because of, but in spite of the system they faced. Their achievements are something to be proud of, not something to take away from, but you do, when you talk about affirmative action.

I don't know how much you make a year. Probably less than some people with darker skin than yours. But you probably also make more than a lot of other people with a different teint, as well. The privilege you have is not a monetary one, it is cultural. It's the simple fact of being a member of the majority culture of the nation you live in. Now I know there's examples of affirmative action meaning that people who are not minority-members get screwed - scholarships being all but impossible to get, schools being practically closed to non-minority people, etc. But those are symptoms of broader problems within the US society, as I see it. They're a problem because while advocating for black rights, asian rights, gay rights, etc. etc. is all good and well, people are failing to take into consideration human rights.

The American society is geared towards keeping the poor poor, and the rich rich. This benefits the rich a lot, and since they can then keep the poor entertained and distracted from real problems, noone else cares. As well, a lot of anger that should rightfully be directed against economic oppression is instead pointed at, say, the black guy who got a scholarship, or the asian chick who managed to get into some school, or something. Instead of agitating for a system that ensures a high level of education for everyone (like, say, Sweden's) all the people whom it would benefit best spend their time at each others' throats over tiny, relatively inconsequential matters.

The worker's movement in the US was basically defeated by racism. White workers went on strike, were replaced by black workers, causing a schism in the unions, making it about white against black, rather than worker against capital. That did not happen over here (Sweden). As a result, we have five weeks vacation, months of paid sick days, and a year's paid paternal leave, while you have two weeks vacation if you're lucky, no paid sick days, and any paternal leave is unpaid as well. Basically, the poor people got screwed by being turned against each other. The end result is that noone noticed who was really getting their jollies at the cost of the working class.

Do I sound like a socialist? Sure. I am one. Socialism, you see, means more people with higher educations, better health, and higher salaries, meaning more taxes get paid and more money gets pumped back into the economy. It's simply good business sense on a societal scale.

Originally posted by Auton

Originally posted by Zorvan

Sorry, but your the one who needs to take a step back.

So everything is so "unfair" to others that aren't white?

I think Obama pretty much blew your argument out of the water. Everytime you or somebody else wants to pull the "I'm being held back because of my race" card, I'm going to refer you to Obama. Or maybe Colin Powell. Or Clarence Thomas. Or any of the others who somehow managed to do what you apparently think can't be done.

And affirmative action does not make things equal. It in fact widens the divide and causes more resentment.

And if I'm so privileged, why aren't I making 100k-200k-1 million dollars a year unlike many people of other racial backgrounds? It couldn't possibly be because those people put in the time and effort to get where they are instead of listening to how "held down" they were, could it?  I mean, everything is handed to us "white folk", ain't it?

You make me laugh and cry at the same time, dude. Wake up and join the future.

With one hand you hold up Obama and Powell and the rest, who have accomplished what they have not because of, but in spite of the system they faced. Their achievements are something to be proud of, not something to take away from, but you do, when you talk about affirmative action.

 

You know what, Mr. Sweden? Why are you discussing racism in the U.S. when you don't even live here? Did you read about us in a book or seen us on the news and now are the authority on how things work over here?

My views of affrimative action do not take away from those individuals I mentioned or anyone else. Affirmative action in this country basically says "if you don't have X numbver of non-caucasian employees, you will be penalized". So you know what happens? People are hired not because of their qualifications, but because of their skin color. Is that not racist to you? Sure seems so to me. And what you get from this system is workers ( both caucasian and minority workers ) who may have been more qualified, but weren't the "needed" "minority" , losing out on that job because of affirmative action, and therefore feeling resentment.Resentment breeds hate, pal. And that is what affirmative action really ends up doing, dividing even further rather than uniting or making equal.

The idea behind affirmative action, and what affirmative action really is, is two different things entirely.

For example, the idea behind communism isn't bad. Yet what have we seen from every country/nation that chose the communist way? Exactly the opposite of the stated intentions. Affirmative action is the same way, a good idea with lousy implementation that achieves exactly the opposite of its intended effect.

It would seem that the columnist has hypocritically discredited herself by offending the “straight white males” who chose to take offense. Add to that she uses name calling to try and add weight to her argument by using the label “scum”....what's next??
And some others are trying to make this a complex multi-rooted emotional shock and in doing so miss the simple realities.

EXP A: Words like “All should be treated equally and fairly” Have merit and are reality because we all come into this world the same way..We all should have the same right to live and grow. These are words worth something and based in reality and words worth fighting for.

EXP B: “You are nothing but a worthless N.....” Is not based in reality or truth, it's ridiculous for anyone to come along and suddenly give the words power (just as ridiculous as once thinking the world was flat in truth) . If it offends someone then it is that someone who gives it power, otherwise it's simple mindless and meaningless rabble.

If someone tries to unjustly take my shelter away or sustenance then they better prepare themselves for a fight because I will fight and kill if need be.

If someone comes along and calls me a (insert w/e) I have a choice to determine my own feelings for they(that someone) have no power in this arena. The difference resides in what I decide to feel and not in what they said.
This is key to a healthy mental state.

Originally posted by Auton

The worker's movement in the US was basically defeated by racism. White workers went on strike, were replaced by black workers, causing a schism in the unions, making it about white against black, rather than worker against capital.

Thanks for the info. I never knew that! :)

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Auton

The worker's movement in the US was basically defeated by racism. White workers went on strike, were replaced by black workers, causing a schism in the unions, making it about white against black, rather than worker against capital.

 

Thanks for the info. I never knew that! :)

Me neither. I'm sure he's willing to provide us with his source of information for our enlightnement though.

I also find it entertaining that, had this thread been started by a normal member in the forums, it would have already been locked and/or deleted for being troll and flame bait, yet because it's an "article", it's excused. Sanya  knew what this thread would devolve into. If she didn't, then I seriously question her abilities as a journalist, writer or whatever she considers herself.

It's a matter of historic record, and most certainly didn't help improve race relations, although with the prior behavior of whites enslaving blacks, I'm sure most white people didn't need much help thinking less of black people.

Originally posted by Zorvan

You know what, Mr. Sweden? Why are you discussing racism in the U.S. when you don't even live here? Did you read about us in a book or seen us on the news and now are the authority on how things work over here?

I'm marrying an American woman next Saturday. She's actually faced the problems of AA herself - it meant she could not get into the school mshe wanted to, basically. I also know a whole bunch of Americans of all stripes, types and colours, beside her.

We're fundamentally in agreement about AA's problems. We have a similar system to it over here, and it actually works, because the greater inequalities have largely been evened out. In this case, it ascertains that minorities can get educations and jobs at the same level as the majorities. An example is the system ensuring that women have access to science Ph.D scholarships, which is necessary because the tenured professors making the call on who gets these slots is pretty much exclusively male, and this prevents any bias from causing problems. It also, at worst, means that a male student who wants a Ph.D. very badly will need to wait a year more for it, but can then rack up some real-world work experience all the while, improving his chances the next year. This only works, in the first place, though, because of the system of free education and so on and so forth we have here.

I really wish you'd take a less confrontational tone, Zorvan. We're really not disagreeing a lot here, and you do have some good points. We should be able to discuss these things amicably, I think.

Originally posted by Auton

I have a question for all those of you who defend the use of the word 'gay' as a pejorative (that means 'bad word'). Have you ever had a political movement, or several, focused on removing rights from you because of something you have no power to change, nor would want to change because it is a bedrock of your personality and identity? I'm guessing no. Black people have had this (c.f. slavery, Jim Crow laws, Ku Klux Clan). LGBT people still do (c.f. Proposition 8 in California, Fred Phelps and associates, etc.).

Proposition 8?  are you high?

This is one of those things that people toss out there so they can focus on some narrow thing.  As opposed to the entire thing...

The US is supposed to be based on a Democratic Republic.  The concept of "majority rule" and gay marriage whether you support it or not.. Was put to a vote and failed.  The courts of california over-ruled the voters (goes directly against the system) and Proposition 8 was the voters saying "oh no you don't".

This is about system... If you want to pass gay marriage then like anything else you go out and convince people to vote for it.  You don't sideline the system or do an end run to get around how things work.

In effect  it would have been the same thing as filing a lawsuit because Obama was elected president.  Then having the court toss out his election... Proposition 8 only existed because the system had been VIOLATED.

I don't care what someone does... what they believe etc

What I do care about is "system" and the moment you do an end run around it....  You have opened the door so that the next time the end run might not be in your favor.

I'm from VT... guess what?  It was the first stae in the US to pass "gay marriage" by the system instead of by the court.  Even tho it was through a veto over-ride it was still done within the system.

The solution to much of anything is to get people to identify and relate to your point of view and gain support for your cause.

Oh and yes I'm a "white male" in a mixed race family but they don't hold it against me... imagine that.

---

Originally posted by Auton
I really wish you'd take a less confrontational tone, Zorvan. We're really not disagreeing a lot here, and you do have some good points. We should be able to discuss these things amicably, I think.

---

That's why so many discussions that turn into debates end up just being poorly constructed arguments that serve only to wrap a personal insult. It's not so much that we don't have good points (as both you and Zorvan certainly do), but that we consider our opinions to be extensions of ourselves. An attack on our position is an attack on us (and often times when someone disputes our position, there's some sort of attack on our character thrown in as well to get our easily-bruised egos into the mix). Look, for instance, at how far from discriminatory comments we have come. Affirmative action? Okay... interesting subject, but not, I think, as interesting as something simple (word choice) affecting how we view the world and each other (through the use of discriminatory words that originate from thoughtless, uneducated, or truly prejudiced mindsets). We naturally are going into the history of our lives to try to draw forth the reasoning behind our attitudes which shape the way we speak to one another, but more often than not it's just a defense mechanism rather than true introspection that calls those attitudes into question.

I'm not sure of the intent of either one of you at this point, but it is definitely starting to look more like a battle of wills than a broadening of awareness.

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

 

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

Not even touching the ignorance in thinking using terms like "gay" in a derogatory sense is demeaning and insulting. I will however merely state that talk like that in an OOC channel, while disgusting, is optional and you don't have to listen to it. Unfortunately thats where freedom of speech comes in and allows any dumbass to say any dumbass thing they want.

Now, if the same thing was said in an RP channel, or in game on an RP server, then its perfectly OK for that person to be tarred, feathered, and banned. In game isn't about "my generation," you're playing a character and that character wouldn't say things that wouldn't be appropriate for the time. And I'm not talking about everyone has to say "Thou" and "Art" in every sentence. You can speak properly without sounding like you're in Hamlet.  But it's an RP server. Act like it. I'm looking at you, WoW.

And just like people who say "Don't like it, don't listen to OOC chat" would comment, if you don't like it, don't play on an RP server. There are plenty of PVP/PvE/Pissing Contest servers for you to muck around in.

God forbid they actually ever enforced the rules on servers with an RP ruleset. The population would probably drop faster than Sarah Palin's chances of a presidential bid.

Originally posted by TuxedoSLY

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

 

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

 

Not even touching the ignorance in thinking using terms like "gay" in a derogatory sense is demeaning and insulting. I will however merely state that talk like that in an OOC channel, while disgusting, is optional and you don't have to listen to it. Unfortunately thats where freedom of speech comes in and allows any dumbass to say any dumbass thing they want.

 

Now, if the same thing was said in an RP channel, or in game on an RP server, then its perfectly OK for that person to be tarred, feathered, and banned. In game isn't about "my generation," you're playing a character and that character wouldn't say things that wouldn't be appropriate for the time. And I'm not talking about everyone has to say "Thou" and "Art" in every sentence. You can speak properly without sounding like you're in Hamlet.  But it's an RP server. Act like it. I'm looking at you, WoW.

 

And just like people who say "Don't like it, don't listen to OOC chat" would comment, if you don't like it, don't play on an RP server. There are plenty of PVP/PvE/Pissing Contest servers for you to muck around in.

 

God forbid they actually ever enforced the rules on servers with an RP ruleset. The population would probably drop faster than Sarah Palin's chances of a presidential bid.

What if you're RP'ing a slave master?

Originally posted by jakojako

Originally posted by TuxedoSLY

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

 

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

 

Not even touching the ignorance in thinking using terms like "gay" in a derogatory sense is demeaning and insulting. I will however merely state that talk like that in an OOC channel, while disgusting, is optional and you don't have to listen to it. Unfortunately thats where freedom of speech comes in and allows any dumbass to say any dumbass thing they want.

 

Now, if the same thing was said in an RP channel, or in game on an RP server, then its perfectly OK for that person to be tarred, feathered, and banned. In game isn't about "my generation," you're playing a character and that character wouldn't say things that wouldn't be appropriate for the time. And I'm not talking about everyone has to say "Thou" and "Art" in every sentence. You can speak properly without sounding like you're in Hamlet.  But it's an RP server. Act like it. I'm looking at you, WoW.

 

And just like people who say "Don't like it, don't listen to OOC chat" would comment, if you don't like it, don't play on an RP server. There are plenty of PVP/PvE/Pissing Contest servers for you to muck around in.

 

God forbid they actually ever enforced the rules on servers with an RP ruleset. The population would probably drop faster than Sarah Palin's chances of a presidential bid.

What if you're RP'ing a slave master?

Well, when there's an MMO based on early American history...then I guess it would be appropriate (though still a clarion of the ignorant and low-brow). As for these "fantasy" worlds of current, I'd highly doubt such lexicon is invented. The slurs, for those adamant about carrying that banner, would have been based on the lore of that particular world.

Freedom of speech... That means that you can say whatever you please (within certain sensible limits) and the government can't fine you, imprison you, or otherwise punish you for it. That really is all.

Basically, it means that you're allowed to talk smack, but I'm allowed to consider you an asshole for it, too. ;)

Part of understanding and empathizing with other people is knowing that we aren't, actually, all one big happy family.  We can talk about the nature of particular words and the emotional baggage they carry until we are blue in the face, it will serve no practical purpose.  While certainly some of these words are used simply as expressions of speech, many times they are used for precisely the reason that many posters in this thread abhor:  enmity and dislike of others.  Note that words are not needed to accomplish such acts of "bigotry" and malice - actions work even better, especially in the 3D game environments of modern MMOs.

And because I understand this, I can refrain from censoring my brother in a misguided attempt to cripple my antagonist.

Yet I also have a dream, a dream where characters and sentient beings of many types live in a simpler time where continual interaction with antagonists is not necessary, or involves a much less complicated approach.  I call this dream "fantasy," and MMORPGs used to be one of the vehicles of my daydreaming.  People with similar dreams used to join me there, and we interacted in a way where the terms "politically correct" and "bigoted" really had no meaning.  The question that haunts me now is, why has this dream of mine died?

The not-so-secret truth of the MMO underbelly is that as long as people who have intense dislike for one another are paying to play the same game, the interactions involved will continue to uphold hatred, malice, and the offending language deemed necessary to convey them.

Anyone notice that it's always the PvP-centric games that are overflowing with vile crap? I quit Eve Online after taking an hours-long tour through .5 and up space, reading the chat logs and finding that 2/3 of the zones had scumbags broadcasting slimy sh8 in open chat.

I tried out CoH and for the heck of it, made a char on both RP and non-RP servers just to see the difference. The non-RP server had some questionable crud (female characters made like sluts and named for sex acts, etc.) and the chat had moderate idiocy in it. However, the RP server was the nicest, most game-play focused server I'd ever seen, with self-policing all over the place. Characters with dirty names were gone the next day, nothing bad was allowed to happen in open chat without player warnings and mass reports if it continued. Although I can't RP at all, it was great to play there.

Later I played LOTRO (non-RP server) and found the same thing as the RP CoH server- a very cool set of people who were just there to play the game, and had no problem policing out those who were there to cause trouble.

I think that's actually key - people who PvP see the game as an instrument to interfere with other people's gameplay, whereas people who PvE are there to play the game itself. And RP people subsume their own characters into those of their character, further restricting their behavior in chat to that which contributes to the game.

Not sure about the PvP RP people though, but my guess is real PvP'rs think the RP ones are "gay" anyways lol.

Originally posted by Auton

Freedom of speech... That means that you can say whatever you please (within certain sensible limits) and the government can't fine you, imprison you, or otherwise punish you for it. That really is all.

Basically, it means that you're allowed to talk smack, but I'm allowed to consider you an asshole for it, too. ;)

Actually, it only means that the government can't do anything. Anyone else can. And the government isn't allowed to interfere with that because that is also an exercise of free speech ;)

I have a question. If he had been calling a person of European decent a "cracker" would they have been banned with in 2 minutes?

Thanks Sanya, another great article.

Wasn't it Southpark that sort of re-popularized the casual derogatory use of "gay?" For them, it worked, because they were having a go at the culture which had created the kids who said it. Since Southpark fans then re-appropriated it, they bled out any kind of irony and now while the word doesn't carry the same degree of hatred that it did say back in the eighties, its almost worse with the casuality its slung about with. 

As one of the posters said, its all about context. The kind of swearing you read in online games has become more offensive for me in recent years because it describes a culture of ignorance and misanthropy which, through the anonymity of the web, has been allowed to thrive. 

Always nice to see someone railing against it. And in the case of this article, great to hear of at least one occaision where there's a ray of hope.

---

Originally posted by wolffin
I have a question. If he had been calling a person of European decent a "cracker" would they have been banned with in 2 minutes?

---

Probably not, because the history behind that word is very different, the flipside of the coin, as it were. A word used to reject those who oppress is very different from a word used to reinforce oppression, don't you agree?

Sanya, It's funny to see someone with a stereotypical attitude about MMO player's opinionate grammer from a 12yr old retard and write a column about it..

The best part is while your snickering and passing CSR tickets to your buddies the customers with real game mechanic issues get stonewalled by what you call "Customer Service"  Would be nice to actually see a CSR fix an issue instead of getting the standard response of "No we can't help you, and Have a Nice Day" but we all know those escalated tickets with REAL problems are a higher paygrade then what you were doing. Everyone knows your Job was a glorified retard filter so I can see why these types of columns probably come up a LOT.

I know after so many years of having prepubescent teens groveling at your feet it's actually hard for you to believe that someone would actually submit a Bug Report and not care what you do with it. But it DOES happen. It happens because unlike the basement dwelers your used to associating with, they probably won't be playing your BUG infested game for longer then 8 months to see it get resolved.

PS. LOTRO community is full of over emotional women/men who need to plug and get laid or  jump off a bridge IRL. and no I didn't submit the ticket incase your wondering :)

Zorvan/kalagaraz win.

As much as I like what they are trying to stand for, the people going against Zorvan sound like ignorant, immature morons that think they're figured out something in life that they really haven't.

Saying "Nigger" in some situations might be perfectly acceptable and completely offensive in others. This is true with all potentially offensive words. It's knowing when a word has an alternative meaning to your audience and when it is acceptable to use it in that sense, that is important. Banning the use altogether is a sign of immaturity or narrow-mindedness above anything else, not maturity

It's always fun seeing self-proclaimed "mature adults" reveal their binary view to the world. Life isn't rendered in black and whit. Other shades lay inbetween....sing with me!

 I am all about people getting banned for being abusive, disruptive bastards when it comes to being on MMORPGs.  I'm even okay with folks getting banned if all they do is get online and let out strings of curse words miles wide.

The trouble I have with MMOs these days, and it -really has- just started being a problem with me, is cursing.

Basically every MMORPG and other game of its class has got some variety of rule that bans cursing in a public forum, which I find absolutely ridiculous.  Partially, this has to do with the fact that cursing is a part of my language; I was brought up talking that way, and for better or worse, swearing works its way into my conversations even when they're polite and at ease.  When I'm ripping into someone, as a rule, I'll do it with no cursing at all, as I feel that adding curse words to an otherwise perfectly legitimate argument (I don't rip into someone without having reason to) lightens the blow; my imagery gets better when I don't curse, although I'm perfectly happy with it if I'm not aggravated.

That said, I also police myself relatively well.  Whereas most people who are poster-children for anti-Internet-swearing will go anywhere from the simple 'fuk u' in General chat to the outright lengthy strings of obscenities and racial or sexual slurs without any particular thread or narrative involved, I have a tendency to be at least remotely friendly when I swear.

My best example for the moment would be on the beta for the new, free DDO.  I said something along the lines of 'You are a fuckin' rockstar, man!' after a friend had pulled me out of a nasty situation, and woke up the next day to find myself banned.

Just a week or so earlier I was on Warhammer Online, and I'd cursed a few times that day, but the real clincher was when the guild leader of one of my server's biggest guilds make a few ridiculously poor, reckless decisions that ended up costing him his entire force; he wiped twice on a force just a little over half his size because he was doing something flagrantly wrong.  I told him so, not gently but without cursing, and suggested a course of action which he could take to improve.  He took that course of action, and reported me for the curses uttered hours earlier, which got me a ban.  It was later confirmed by one of his guildmates that he did it not because I had cursed and he was insulted (and, by the way, the profanity filter in WAR is on by default and you -must- turn it off to hear profanity) but rather because I had made him look like an idiot in front of his guild, and he didn't like it.

That was my first ban, to be followed within two weeks by two -more- bans from two entirely separate games... one of which I was banned for -directly copying and pasting from NPC text-.

I have not changed my speaking habits (indeed, I curse less now than ever) and these are the first three violation bans I have had in literally over a decade of playing online games, from MUDs to UO to Asheron's Call and onwards to the present.

MMORPG.com's got a great profanity rule, I think; the occasional 'bad word' is fine, says the Code of Conduct, but swear-laden threads and profanity-filled rants are not.  That's great.  That's the rule I'd like to happen in -every- game, because it would keep the twelve-year-olds who just learned all their curses in line, and keep folks like me, an older guy with a propensity towards using foul language for emphasis rather than attack, relatively safe.

Sadly, that is not the case.  Zero-tolerance policies being the Thing To Do lately, we're ending up with a 'cleaner' Internet at the expense of guys like me.  I sometimes find solace with the occasional GM that understands the difference between a cursing row and a swear used in normal, calm speech.  For the most part, however, GMs say 'the rules are the rules' and just toss me right off the Internet.

More power to you, I guess, but I find that picking on folks who -use- rather than -abuse- curses simply because we do some of the things the kiddies do... well, a little unfair, I suppose.  Such is the case with any policy that says 'This Thing Is Not Allowed'.

It makes me sad, but people think it's the only way.

That -also- makes me sad.

Originally posted by kaydinv

Saying "Nigger" in some situations might be perfectly acceptable and completely offensive in others.

Tell me of one situation in which I, with my pale skin, could say said n-bomb and it would be acceptable. I sure as sin can't think of one. If the situation where it would be acceptable is "the speaker is possessed of a high melanin-count", then there's something very wrong about the whole argument, there.

As well, you undermine your own argument by calling your opponents immature and the like. This does not make it more likely anyone will take you seriously. Insulting people is not a great way to get them to listen.

KirinRahl: You illustrate some serious issues, there. Zero-tolerance policies tend to cause more problems than they help, and banning someone for praising another player emphatically seems, well, extremely dumb. A more sensible attitude towards the use of language in general might behoove these companies.

Originally posted by KirinRahl

 I am all about people getting banned for being abusive, disruptive bastards when it comes to being on MMORPGs.  I'm even okay with folks getting banned if all they do is get online and let out strings of curse words miles wide.

The trouble I have with MMOs these days, and it -really has- just started being a problem with me, is cursing.

Basically every MMORPG and other game of its class has got some variety of rule that bans cursing in a public forum, which I find absolutely ridiculous.  Partially, this has to do with the fact that cursing is a part of my language; I was brought up talking that way, and for better or worse, swearing works its way into my conversations even when they're polite and at ease.  When I'm ripping into someone, as a rule, I'll do it with no cursing at all, as I feel that adding curse words to an otherwise perfectly legitimate argument (I don't rip into someone without having reason to) lightens the blow; my imagery gets better when I don't curse, although I'm perfectly happy with it if I'm not aggravated.

That said, I also police myself relatively well.  Whereas most people who are poster-children for anti-Internet-swearing will go anywhere from the simple 'fuk u' in General chat to the outright lengthy strings of obscenities and racial or sexual slurs without any particular thread or narrative involved, I have a tendency to be at least remotely friendly when I swear.

My best example for the moment would be on the beta for the new, free DDO.  I said something along the lines of 'You are a fuckin' rockstar, man!' after a friend had pulled me out of a nasty situation, and woke up the next day to find myself banned.

Just a week or so earlier I was on Warhammer Online, and I'd cursed a few times that day, but the real clincher was when the guild leader of one of my server's biggest guilds make a few ridiculously poor, reckless decisions that ended up costing him his entire force; he wiped twice on a force just a little over half his size because he was doing something flagrantly wrong.  I told him so, not gently but without cursing, and suggested a course of action which he could take to improve.  He took that course of action, and reported me for the curses uttered hours earlier, which got me a ban.  It was later confirmed by one of his guildmates that he did it not because I had cursed and he was insulted (and, by the way, the profanity filter in WAR is on by default and you -must- turn it off to hear profanity) but rather because I had made him look like an idiot in front of his guild, and he didn't like it.

That was my first ban, to be followed within two weeks by two -more- bans from two entirely separate games... one of which I was banned for -directly copying and pasting from NPC text-.

I have not changed my speaking habits (indeed, I curse less now than ever) and these are the first three violation bans I have had in literally over a decade of playing online games, from MUDs to UO to Asheron's Call and onwards to the present.

MMORPG.com's got a great profanity rule, I think; the occasional 'bad word' is fine, says the Code of Conduct, but swear-laden threads and profanity-filled rants are not.  That's great.  That's the rule I'd like to happen in -every- game, because it would keep the twelve-year-olds who just learned all their curses in line, and keep folks like me, an older guy with a propensity towards using foul language for emphasis rather than attack, relatively safe.

Sadly, that is not the case.  Zero-tolerance policies being the Thing To Do lately, we're ending up with a 'cleaner' Internet at the expense of guys like me.  I sometimes find solace with the occasional GM that understands the difference between a cursing row and a swear used in normal, calm speech.  For the most part, however, GMs say 'the rules are the rules' and just toss me right off the Internet.

More power to you, I guess, but I find that picking on folks who -use- rather than -abuse- curses simply because we do some of the things the kiddies do... well, a little unfair, I suppose.  Such is the case with any policy that says 'This Thing Is Not Allowed'.

It makes me sad, but people think it's the only way.

That -also- makes me sad.

Excellent post. It's unfortunate people are too ignorant to understand.

Originally posted by Auton

Originally posted by kaydinv

Saying "Nigger" in some situations might be perfectly acceptable and completely offensive in others.

Tell me of one situation in which I, with my pale skin, could say said n-bomb and it would be acceptable. I sure as sin can't think of one. If the situation where it would be acceptable is "the speaker is possessed of a high melanin-count", then there's something very wrong about the whole argument, there.

As well, you undermine your own argument by calling your opponents immature and the like. This does not make it more likely anyone will take you seriously. Insulting people is not a great way to get them to listen.

 

Krin-Rahl: You illustrate some serious issues, there. Zero-tolerance policies tend to cause more problems than they help, and banning someone for praising another player emphatically seems, well, extremely dumb. A more sensible attitude towards the use of language in general might behoove these companies.

Well, at least I didn't call them "SCUM" right?

I have actually heard many caucasian males say "Nigger" to a black friend of theirs in the same way that was described earlier in this thread (I'm too lazy to quote; you can search for yourself). In that situation it can mean "friend," such as "Whasup, Nigga." I live in LA. Not everyone has clenched assholes here.

Now, it might be innappropriate for a different caucasian male to greet a different black male with the same phrase, but that's what I mean by this whole nonesense being situational. Sometimes it's not perceived in a negative way and sometimes it is.

Proclaiming it as a negative word in every situation is ignorant.

People let words have control and meaning as they see fit.

Most people will be offended and up in arms about BS, the rest of us will know, hey, "Stop buggin' out and it won't matter..."

Originally posted by Slampig

People let words have control and meaning as they see fit.

Most people will be offended and up in arms about BS, the rest of us will know, hey, "Stop buggin' out and it won't matter..."

So true, and you can always ask the person politely to refrain from using those words, instead of directly attacking their diction or attempting to get them banned over a silly word. Worst comes to worst in an MMO, you can set them to /ignore.

  Serious issues are the ones I tend to look for. I try to find causes, not symptoms. Folks who figure that having a cleaner Internet is worth going all Demolition Man in terms of swearing or anything else untoward seems a little insane. It surprises me a lot how many folks tell me that I'm uncreative or small-minded because I have a propensity towards using phrases like 'fuckin' unbelievable' to describe things, whether it's half my allied force allowing the other half to be farmed for Renown or an exclamation re:having my ass saved in public. It seems amazing to me how many folks hook up 'this person curses' with 'this person is a bad person' in their minds; I've had a number of discussions to this end with Gamemasters and things, but for the most part, those folks are just following orders.

Again, I think it's a nasty situation that's getting worse. For more than a decade I've been doing what I do, not hurtin' anybody, and now my hopping online involves cycling through my inbox to see who was mortally wounded by my use of the word 'shit' where a child could, somewhere, possibly read.

People are hiding behind rules. That's not what they're for. It's a trend I don't like looking at on any level.  Even if it cleans up the Internet to some degree, regulations like that seem arbitrary and petty, useless in a way only an old Sly Stallone movie could possibly embody.

Originally posted by KirinRahl

  Serious issues are the ones I tend to look for. I try to find causes, not symptoms. Folks who figure that having a cleaner Internet is worth going all Demolition Man in terms of swearing or anything else untoward seems a little insane. It surprises me a lot how many folks tell me that I'm uncreative or small-minded because I have a propensity towards using phrases like 'fuckin' unbelievable' to describe things, whether it's half my allied force allowing the other half to be farmed for Renown or an exclamation re:having my ass saved in public. It seems amazing to me how many folks hook up 'this person curses' with 'this person is a bad person' in their minds; I've had a number of discussions to this end with Gamemasters and things, but for the most part, those folks are just following orders.

Again, I think it's a nasty situation that's getting worse. For more than a decade I've been doing what I do, not hurtin' anybody, and now my hopping online involves cycling through my inbox to see who was mortally wounded by my use of the word 'shit' where a child could, somewhere, possibly read.

People are hiding behind rules. That's not what they're for. It's a trend I don't like looking at on any level.  Even if it cleans up the Internet to some degree, regulations like that seem arbitrary and petty, useless in a way only an old Sly Stallone movie could possibly embody.

Although I've never been banned from an MMO for it, I understand what you mean. I, too, enjoy using "curse" words every now and then for emphasis and it does seem as though a lot of people will immediately label you as "stupid" or "bad" for the use of those words.

It's like someone getting mad on an RP server for not using an Olde English tone when speaking in character.

 I dunno.  Not using Olde Englishe doesn't bear the same onus of Being A Bad Person.  A lot of people literally think less of you after the first swear escapes your lips.  It's a moral thing, for some reason.  Bad for children, etc.

I'd love to know when the last time folks who make these rules were in a middle school.

I thought I cursed a lot until I opened up an Internet cafe and listened to eight and ten year olds yell at each other whilst playing Halo.  It's unbelievable!  And these are the kids we're 'saving' from cursing by beating up on the poor old bastard who used to make the best CDEF pistols on Gorath.

First of all, i belive that all that "poliical correct" thing is nonsence. With that thing someone just trying to enforce his/her point of view on what is offencive and what isn't.

Well, i belive that if every one will start to think would his/her words offence some one or not - world will fall in silence. Just because you can't be absolutly sure, that you'll not offence one (or more) of 6 (or more?) billions people out there? Even ramdomly typed letters have a chance to do so, i belive. Not everyone know all meanings of words and sleng in other countries. There is no such thing like universal culture. What is ok to use in in Russia, can be offencive in USA. For example, in Russia world that mean black guy is "negr". It's very close to oh-so-feared "N" word in USA, so there will be someone for sure who will find it offencive. But Russia never had colony in Africa, never used it's native people as slaves and this word never been offencive in original meaning. Not even words, actions can be explained in different manner. For example good old European (? never been in America, so dunno how it's there) tradition for male to open up door before female and let her in first. I belive some feminist can find it very offencive and give me a long speach about male dominance, but in Russia that is norm of behaviour for polite people and if you don't do so traditionalist will find that offencive and count you as barbarian at least. Speaking about culture. It can differ so much... for example in most of muslim countries male dominance is absolute. If husband don't like what his wife speakiing or doing he can seamply beat her. And that is absolutly normal. And if you will try to interract - he will beat you too, because it's none of your business. Such behaviar is unacceptable for western culture. It's unacceptable for me (living in European part of Russia), but it's ok inCaucasian region. So even in one country what is offencive and what isn't can differ a lot. And now you trying to apply your rules on whole Earth? You making me laugh - people around the world differ too much. And who said that your rules is the right ones?

So i belive that people just inventing problems for themselves. If you want to find something offencive - you will find something for sure even if that someone doing or speaking something that is perfectly ok in his/her country.

And sorry for my English =)
 

Originally posted by Newfr

First of all, i belive that all that "poliical correct" thing is nonsence. With that thing someone just trying to enforce his/her point of view on what is offencive and what isn't.

Well, i belive that if every one will start to think would his/her words offence some one or not - world will fall in silence. Just because you can't be absolutly sure, that you'll not offence one (or more) of 6 (or more?) billions people out there? Even ramdomly typed letters have a chance to do so, i belive. Not everyone know all meanings of words and sleng in other countries. There is no such thing like universal culture. What is ok to use in in Russia, can be offencive in USA. For example, in Russia world that mean black guy is "negr". It's very close to oh-so-feared "N" word in USA, so there will be someone for sure who will find it offencive. But Russia never had colony in Africa, never used it's native people as slaves and this word never been offencive in original meaning. Not even words, actions can be explained in different manner. For example good old European (? never been in America, so dunno how it's there) tradition for male to open up door before female and let her in first. I belive some feminist can find it very offencive and give me a long speach about male dominance, but in Russia that is norm of behaviour for polite people and if you don't do so traditionalist will find that offencive and count you as barbarian at least. Speaking about culture. It can differ so much... for example in most of muslim countries male dominance is absolute. If husband don't like what his wife speakiing or doing he can seamply beat her. And that is absolutly normal. And if you will try to interract - he will beat you too, because it's none of your business. Such behaviar is unacceptable for western culture. It's unacceptable for me (living in European part of Russia), but it's ok inCaucasian region. So even in one country what is offencive and what isn't can differ a lot. And now you trying to apply your rules on whole Earth? You making me laugh - people around the world differ too much. And who said that your rules is the right ones?

So i belive that people just inventing problems for themselves. If you want to find something offencive - you will find something for sure even if that someone doing or speaking something that is perfectly ok in his/her country.

And sorry for my English =)
 

I understand what you're trying to say here, but in this particular case I don't think it applies. The author was relating a story from a game being played on an American server. In that case, geographical tolerances and/or bigotry are less of a factor, in my opinion.

I've traveled all over the USA for work and pleasure, and I can't think of a place I've visited where no blacks would be offended by the casual use of the n-word toward complete strangers, nor can I think of a place where no gays would be offended by casual use of the word "gay" as a derogatory slur.

Mind you, I'm not saying I advocate policing the internet. I'm just pointing out why I disagree with your statement. Hell... if they started policing due to swearing, I'd be tossed out of every game eventually. I use "colorful" language as a part of my daily speech. :P

Sanya I am with you on this.  Great article by the way.   I have seen things like you describe in games like Planetside, Age of Conan and EvE.    The good thing about those games are we the players can choose to just put the offender on ignore/block and we don't have to read their garbage any more.    I have learned that in most games though that a large portion of community will police itself and if that is not enough then you can bet many people will report the individual and in moments they will be gone.

Being PC is one thing, but letting a player spam a chat with words that everyone knows what they mean and find offensive is not a good thing at all. 

The words are irrelavent, it's the meaning they convey. For intinstance calling something 'gay' or 'ghey' is offensive simply because its a word that describes a group of people due to their sexual preference. To then use it in a refernce to 'lame or stupid' is derogatory to those people, obviously. When its used in the 'dudue that's gay' it isn't in the happy sense is it.

The word 'niger' is offence for the same reason, it's to do with the conotation of the word. While it is true that words and language evolve and their original meanings change it is also true that while a majority of people still see the word as offensive it reamins so.

I think that the whole 'gay' problem may just solve itself. Eventually the new definition (lame/boring) will be mainstream enough that people will forget it ever meant homosexual. Some may find this a perversion of the word rather than an evolution of it, but  they'll get over it.

Originally posted by kaydinv

It's always fun seeing self-proclaimed "mature adults" reveal their binary view to the world. Life isn't rendered in black and whit. Other shades lay inbetween....sing with me!

First of all, I take the terms "maturity" and "immaturity" as neither insults nor compliments.  Assuming that everyone must adhere to some subjective test of wisdom is, ironically, a binary viewpoint itself.

And while life in general isn't rendered in black and white, MMO playerbases do not represent a truly random cross-section of such.  For reasons that are probably fathomable, MMO playerbases are fractured (with perhaps slightly blurred lines of distinction) into those who are there to play and cooperate, and those who are there to dominate and compete.

It imposes an environment that surpasses even the hostility encountered in the real world.

Originally posted by Antarious

Originally posted by Auton

I have a question for all those of you who defend the use of the word 'gay' as a pejorative (that means 'bad word'). Have you ever had a political movement, or several, focused on removing rights from you because of something you have no power to change, nor would want to change because it is a bedrock of your personality and identity? I'm guessing no. Black people have had this (c.f. slavery, Jim Crow laws, Ku Klux Clan). LGBT people still do (c.f. Proposition 8 in California, Fred Phelps and associates, etc.).

 

Proposition 8?  are you high?

 

This is one of those things that people toss out there so they can focus on some narrow thing.  As opposed to the entire thing...

 

The US is supposed to be based on a Democratic Republic.  The concept of "majority rule" and gay marriage whether you support it or not.. Was put to a vote and failed.  The courts of california over-ruled the voters (goes directly against the system) and Proposition 8 was the voters saying "oh no you don't".

 

This is about system... If you want to pass gay marriage then like anything else you go out and convince people to vote for it.  You don't sideline the system or do an end run to get around how things work.

 

In effect  it would have been the same thing as filing a lawsuit because Obama was elected president.  Then having the court toss out his election... Proposition 8 only existed because the system had been VIOLATED.

 

I don't care what someone does... what they believe etc

 

What I do care about is "system" and the moment you do an end run around it....  You have opened the door so that the next time the end run might not be in your favor.

 

I'm from VT... guess what?  It was the first stae in the US to pass "gay marriage" by the system instead of by the court.  Even tho it was through a veto over-ride it was still done within the system.

 

The solution to much of anything is to get people to identify and relate to your point of view and gain support for your cause.

 

Oh and yes I'm a "white male" in a mixed race family but they don't hold it against me... imagine that.

Ever heard of a phrase " The Tyranny of the Majority"? It's why so many laws passed by voters wind up in the Supreme Court. Because the majority can be mighty bigoted. And the majority has no problem denying others their constitutional rights. If the majority ruled, African-Americans would still be sitting at the back of the bus.

There's a lot of irony in this article from Sanya.

She's quick to point out that she condemns racial and sexual insults and sterotypes... then she proceeds to sterotype MMO gamers by acting shocked that they object to people using certain deragotory words and report bugs without expecting any compensation.  Too bad MMO players aren't a protected class, then Sanya would now be fired and blacklisted in the community.

Sanya, sterotyping people is a bad thing to do, even if your government hasn't passed laws against it.  Grow up.

Originally posted by grimfall

Sanya, sterotyping people is a bad thing to do, even if your government hasn't passed laws against it.  Grow up.

 Stereotyping individuals of a particular people could be objectively called a self-defeating behavior.  Stereotyping an entire group of people is not necessarily subject to the same criticism and could be as simple as, "Kenyans, in general, are better long distance runners."  Should you treat every Kenyan you meet as a long distance runner?  Probably not, but knowing that you might want to go to Kenya to find a long distance runner is not entirely useless.

Also, being surprised by the behavior of individuals in the face of a group stereotype is actually the inverse of prejudice and bigotry.

I agree with your sentiment but think you're rather out there trying to compare saying "Nividia is gay" to being a bigoted comment.  Pending on where you live it gets used quite commonly and is in no way meant towards flaming or thinking ill of homosexuals.  Hell, one of my best friends at work is a lesbian and she uses that phrase about things more than just about anyone else I know (beats it to death actually-can be very annoying).  It's a context thing least with people I know.  Most can decipher or read between the lines to tell when you mean it in a bigoted, harmful sentiment or when you're just using it as a catchphrase.  I get mmo chat isn't the real world but I haven't run across anyone in years regardless of whether they're heterosexual or homosexual that gets up in arms over that phrase.

Again, I get your basic premise and I know you were just giving an example but compared to the shit that tends to go on even in LotR especially if you're on the global channels getting worked up over that seems like nonsense to me.  Overall though it was a nice read.  Not so sure you would think things have changed all that much though if you were in the global channels.  Its about a half step away from being Barrens chat in my opinion.

 ...and I'm not going to sift back through these posts again but to the poster that said Southpark made this a common, acceptable term? Huh? It had nothing to do with that show.  If it had to do with anything it was people being more open about talking about homosexuality and not treating it like such a taboo subject and realizing that sexual preference has no bearing on your own life or the realization  that associating with those that might happen to be homosexual will in no way make you a homosexual yourself and like yourself they prefer to be treated like a fellow human being - not like a glass menagerie or a dirty sock.

Anyone else notice this seems to be the only "article" written by Sanya where she hasn't come in the thread to respond, comment, or "clarify" in response to any posts?

I've read this entire thread and have not been surprised at Ms. Weathers cowardice to respond and support her despicable entry. Its a progressive and sickeningly liberal blame america write up. Placing a picture of Don Imus in a puff piece about a benign phrase from a 15yr old in a game is preposterous. Ms. Weathers is also clearly overly sensitive and disrespectful of anyones viewpoint beyond her own. You should create a site for your soabox of lunacy, madam.

This is a gaming site. Which should be used to discuss aspects of gaming. This social and political garbage is best discussed at more suitable places. My suggestion would be whatever hate america website she subscibes to currently. Zorvan, you're completely right on with your perception. Also, I agree with the majority of opinion and response you've made here.

Its beyond time we move on and stop with all this hatred. We in america have defeated the cultural inequities of the past. We are NOT 'african-american, hispanic-american, white-american'. If you're born here(or leagally immigrate) in this country you are afforded the same open ceiling and open floor within the law. Its just that simple. You're american!! We need to realize this bigotry and cultural(political in reality) sniping only makes the reasonable thinking majority question how long will the blame game keep going.

This{US} is the greatest country in the world. The more effort and harder you work is what determines your outcome. Ask President Obama. Ask the men and women of the supreme court. Ask coaches and owners in all major sports leagues. Doctors, lawyers, and professors of logical thinking. It is not easy, nor should be. There needs to be no standard for one and all. The kind of nanny state socialism creates and sustains is mediocrity at best. You'll never be any higher or lower than your neighbor(this is a whole other convo in itself). The bars are set by the government and all you get is medial sustenance. Might as well burn a number in your forehead cause thats about all you are. Nothing makes you any different than the person next door.

I think this piece was also written to start contoversy and works towards the site definition of 'trolling'. It should be romoved and if she is employed/compensated in any way it should be witheld and reprimanded strongly. Several viewpoints on gaming is useful here, but bringing in an unchallenged viewpoint by a substantial writer on the header box is bias and creates contempt. This isnt the place to spout your social initiatives and standards Ms. Weathers, please take it somewhere that this would seem appropriate.

Really, Demonshank? That's what you got out of the article and the resulting responses? All I see is a bunch of people expressing their ideas about prejudice and how it factors into life (which I agree is a separation from how it specifically applies to MMOGs, but you can't blame the posters for that. They do this mainly to either deflect attention from weak arguments or to try to draw a more widespread impact from a simple word that is being used in a derogatory way (perhaps I am guilt of both myself). This is not an "easy" subject, and it's going to elicit a lot of different responses, some sophomoric, some quite profound. I'm sure this isn't everyone's cup of tea, and doesn't seem to be yours, but it IS an aspect of online gaming, and I believe it does have merit. There are some good ideas being bandied about here. You're obviously less comfortable with this kind of chatter than with, let's say, the most optimum build for a paladin in DDO. That's fine, I'm sure you can find what you're looking for elsewhere. I, for one, find discussions like this to be rare gems in otherwise very straightforward (and often mathematical) strategy guides on how to play the game better. Sure, they're messier, but they're also more filling.

Demonshank:

I've read this entire thread and have not been surprised at Ms. Weathers cowardice to respond and support her despicable entry. Its a progressive and sickeningly liberal blame america write up. Placing a picture of Don Imus in a puff piece about a benign phrase from a 15yr old in a game is preposterous. Ms. Weathers is also clearly overly sensitive and disrespectful of anyones viewpoint beyond her own. You should create a site for your soabox of lunacy, madam....

Uh okay, while I think some of the examples she gave far as the Nividia thing and "throws like a girl" comments are short sighted and rather preposterous to deem in the same mix as her other example of someone using the n-word or, for example, a truly bigoted action such as knowingly using the f-word towards someone you know is a homosexual; I'm not sure we have to go Bill O'Reilley on her.

Heh...she had a good point just some ill advised comparisons she used for emphasis.  People grow up in different environments. I guess in hers that's all deemed "evil, cruel, uneducated and reeking of bigotry".  In mine, its a part of life and phrases people use with no ill will meant towards any race, gender, or personal sexual orientation and are used by people I associate with of different races, genders, and sexual orientations.

It is strange that the N word received such imediate outcry and yet the term GAY. There was a picture i remember seeing on the internet long time ago.

anonymitiy + internet = F**kt**d.

The same person that would call someone else a Nword wouldnt dream of using it outside in the real world, likewise they probbly wouldnt stand at a bus stop and proclaim "that bus is gay" because its late.

I dont know where it has all come from because i know i wasnt brought up to be a racist homophobic bigot, and yet i have cought myself online typing "thats totally gay".

The other problem i feel is that some people are effecitlvy cusioned from reality, they dont understand that what they are saying is wrong. They hear from black rappers all calling each other Nwords and ive even heard comedians go on about it (chris rock). they think "hey they are calling each other Nwords it must be alright."

I understand that a lot of young folk listen to RAP and so they must assume that because their idols are using the word its ok as well. Ive had people pop into open chat "hey whats happening Nword" and it makes my skin crawl but i dont insta report them. If i truely felt it was that offensive i would /rpfilter the word and move on. I do remember when that command came in i /rp filtered an entire NPC saying (the finlaiths at cursed forest) then half my conversations wouldnt make sence till i turned it off.

I think companies need to provide us with the tools to filter it and as soon as we turn of that filter then thats it we can no longer complain. They put in places to censor words and instead we turned them of as soon as we can, then we get offended when someone uses it ? thats what doesnt make sence.

This article is full of shit. Sorry to say that pretending to be in inside a game a creating articles about factless action inside is going to be the down fall of your career.

People get offended way too easily. There's no such thing as "bad words", they're words which are used to express feelings towards something, someone, or oneself.

If hearing someone say a word which society has labeled as "bad" emotionally bothers you to the point that some people in this discussion are speaking of, you need to get tougher skin.

Honestly, I can't imagine the kind of sheltered lives you guys live when hearing the word "fuck" hurts your feelings.

Originally posted by Senadina

 ...you  really should have expected this sort of response from what I assume are predominately straight, white, males. Having never been disenfranchised, they have no understanding of how derogatory words belittle and disempower others. It is a way to keep the minorities " in their place".

Okay, so it's perfectly fine to stereotype long as we're talking about heterosexual white males?  Got it.

Lol...the irony in some people that proclaim or act like they're so above it all yet so quick and freely judge others is downright nauseating at times.

ofgs...

==== rant warning ====

All this fricking stupid talk about politics and disenfranchised people.

Don't you sadsacks get it?

It's not about race. In the countries where whites are not the majority, who is ruling? Brown peoples.

It's not about sexual orientation, homosexuality has been around longer than marriage. Are you all so certain there are no homosexuals in positions of power the world over?

It's about entitlement of the few and it doesn't matter what color, race, religion, or sexual orientation you are, you don't belong to their so-called "bloodline" and you aren't part of any "agreements" between families.

And females, don't feel "proud" or whatever dubious emotion it is, that there aren't that many women in positions of power. Do you really think that the wives/daughters of these men give a ff about you and your thoughts? maybe a few, but their own view them as aberrations and of traitorous frame of mind which needs "correcting".

Anybody in America that doesn't think it's so is frankly ignorant of history merged into current events.

They give us "bread and circuses" and, apparently, this IS enough as here you all are, part of the circus - no?
(Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses)

==== end rant ====

Smacktalk in any venue is about people feeling powerless and wanting to attack someone, anyone. Granted there are dedicated griefers, but most people who "lose their cool" are at that moment feeling pretty powerless and it's a poor attempt to get some back.

I don't know why people are behaving differently now, except maybe the state of the economy, and world in general, is somehow being brought home to them and they are simply being a little more careful for reasons only known to them.

Economically speaking, many now don't have the complete freedom to game-hop if they get banned in one. Perhaps they are more careful because they want to keep their current sub since they are working very hard to pay down over-extended credit cards.

In short perhaps, in their minds, they are trying to make the best of a bad situation by not making it any worse.

---

Originally posted by delateur Really, Demonshank? That's what you got out of the article and the resulting responses? All I see is a bunch of people expressing their ideas about prejudice and how it factors into life (which I agree is a separation from how it specifically applies to MMOGs, but you can't blame the posters for that. They do this mainly to either deflect attention from weak arguments or to try to draw a more widespread impact from a simple word that is being used in a derogatory way (perhaps I am guilt of both myself). This is not an "easy" subject, and it's going to elicit a lot of different responses, some sophomoric, some quite profound. I'm sure this isn't everyone's cup of tea, and doesn't seem to be yours, but it IS an aspect of online gaming, and I believe it does have merit. There are some good ideas being bandied about here. You're obviously less comfortable with this kind of chatter than with, let's say, the most optimum build for a paladin in DDO. That's fine, I'm sure you can find what you're looking for elsewhere. I, for one, find discussions like this to be rare gems in otherwise very straightforward (and often mathematical) strategy guides on how to play the game better. Sure, they're messier, but they're also more filling.

---

I did glean exactly what I opined, Delateur. I see those same bunch of people expressing their ideas about prejudice as you. The problem is the presentation and the unchallenged stage given on a site I do not see(you form your own opinion, respectfully supported by me) as a place to discuss social initiatives and standards. We as posters can challenge, but if it goes beyond any response(as Zorvan pointed out) or clarification/discussion what is it besides simple soabox 'take that' declaration?
 

I could understand a 'give and take' presentation. I missed the part about suggesting greater options for users in a less than free speech medium(mmog), therefore creating a meaningful gaming discussion. I agree with many of the posters here. "Language filter on". Those filters can be tuned with greater options as games are created(wasting time and funds, imo), but seriously get a grip people!
 

You're too sensitive and I guess you file anyone into /ignore that makes a joke or includes conjecture using the words 'gay' or 'retarded'. Those words still have very clear definition and are hardly that offensive. If you're a homosexual, do you not call yourself and those with your preference 'gays'? My understanding is 'gay' has a 'carefree' definition too. The users Nvidia card was functioning improperly and "carefree" of his need for it to work correctly. The fact that those words become empowered with bigotry or contempt is because the affected is likely lacking proper information. Simple explanation can settle the misinterpretation. Mommy didnt teach you 'Sticks and Stones'? Generally speaking, not you specifically, Delateur :)
 

The 'N' word is really a different story. Its pretty inappropriate for use at all, but as someone said much earlier "its not gonna ruin my day". If I heard someone using it in a derogatory manner(not many other ways to use it) and that person when asked politely to use more tasteful language(in the presense of children predominantly) declined, that would likely turn unpleasant. If  this person/'s were using it, as also stated earlier, as another form of  'friend, pal, homie, fella" then clearly that is their prerogative. You might think that those using it (in any form) would get an ass kicking, but it might just be the opposite outcome.
 

Im not disputing the discussion. I think its better presented in the contextual form, as Ms. Weathers made, somewhere else more appropriate. Also, your judgement of my distaste to meaningful discussion/debate isnt correct Delateur, quite the contrary, when in(my feeling of) the proper realm. There is a large field of topics that apply to improving, changing, creating, playing, and a host of other debatable concepts in gaming. This could be worth a type of open discussion, but its, moreover, sniping at each other and a failure of the article(if you can call it that) to really create a base beyond "my way is correct". The painting of Ms. Weathers social standard is intolerant at best. I stand by my request for it to be removed.

/boggle

When I last checked this thread, it was two pages long. Then I stopped checking it, because it was a holiday weekend, and the only time I spent on the computer was for paying work.

And my goodness.

Guys, this was kind of a "low hanging fruit" week. For my more insider-y columns I try to interview people currently working in the industry. Last week being the week before a holiday, a lot of employed people weren't on IM. So it was less an inside the industry column than it was an inside the game column.

Anyway, I needed something fast and simple. It struck me as interesting that in a number of anecdotes grouped close together, people acted with courtesy and respect for each other - took into account that the things they said might offend or hurt people that they couldn't see. And yes, I was aware it would start a discussion... which, um, is currently my job?

It does bother me that whenever I try to say basically  "listen, these words coming from someone we can't see and don't know can be hurtful," the response usually degenerates to "well, *I* never had a slave."

Get a grip, please. There is a ton of respectable scholarship out there about privilege and invisible benefits, etc.

http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

Yes, it's about white privilege, but it can apply to other situations.

Saying that a particular group is at a disadvantage in our "culture" is not assigning blame for it.

Finally, if I were going to answer the various people saying context matters when you use words that can be harmful... YES. And the open chat channel in an MMO where you cannot see any of the people you're talking with, where you don't know their backgrounds and experiences? IS NEVER THE RIGHT CONTEXT. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear! Seriously. If you want to swear or act like an ass or reveal your own favorite -ism, do it in guild chat or PM.

Originally posted by Sanya

Get a grip, please. There is a ton of respectable scholarship out there about privilege and invisible benefits, etc.

http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

Yes, it's about white privilege, but it can apply to other situations.

Saying that a particular group is at a disadvantage in our "culture" is not assigning blame for it.

Please excuse me if my language offends your delicate sensibilities, but WHAT THE FUCK does what you just posted have to do with mmos or games in general?

This is a site for mmorpgs, i.e. GAMES. This is not your personal platform for social or political commentary. I've seen less inflamatory bulshit deleted from the "Off Topic" section for being "flame bait".

If you have somehow confused your years of being a "community manager" and the last couple months of being a mmorpg.com article writer as being some type of legitimate journalism, that's fine. More power to you. I'm sure the New York Times is just beating down your door for your unparalled wisdom regarding racial equality.

But I do not consider a gaming forum to be the proper place for your soapbox.

And in fact, what I have quoted from you there shows that there was more to your little "article" than just being upset over some chat. You have an agenda, and have done a lousy job of disguising it, especially after this. Be glad I don't run this site, you'd have already been let go.

This shit's over, I'm not getting a ban over your ridiculousness.

I understand that people get offended but man I mean come on this whole PC crap has gotten out of hand.   Now Im not going to go up to a black person and call them a Nigger in a hateful way but I don't care what color you are if you're contemptible, inferior, ignorant you're a Nigger, cuz that's the def.  I used to call my friends nigga's all the time but then we changed it to Ninja cuz it sounds cooler. 

Gay, Retarded, Faggot, all are used in my daily vocabulary. Dude that is so gay, Man your so retarded, Quit being such a fag.  I use all the time now am i making fun of Gays and Retards no, its just I grew up with those words with different meanings. I can understand that people might get offended about it, but man why make such a fuss over words? Its pretty easy to figure out how people are using words.  Like the whole Nvidia's Gay, obviously you can see that he is just calling them lame and not calling the team Homosexual.

 Now you might say why not just call them stupid or lame and just drop the whole gay retarded thing.   Its how people grew up, and I say telling someone not to use certain words is gay.  It is suppressing my freedom of speech and expression. I have the right to say anything as long as it doesn't insight a riot or isn't slander and such.

Censorship has gone way to far, I say radio stations shouldn't block out cuss words. Cuss words are looked down upon and I hear people say  that only simple minded people use curse words which I think is totally retarded . Fuck is a very versatle word and can be used in many ways and in one way that no other word can be used.  for example. I want to get a tattoo right fucking here (pointing to my leg).  Can you replace fucking with another word that makes sense? 

If you don't want to hear these words you don't have to, you can change the station and listen to music that doesn't have curse words. Or if the people you hang around use it and you don't like it hang around different people.  Or if they are in game just blist them, end of story your not taking peoples right to freedom of speech and expression away and you don't have to listen to it, so its a win, win situation.

Now it comes to protecting the kids, I understand that its important. You can't always be around your kids but when they are in your home you should be monitoring what they are listening to or watching.  Other than that its the best you can do.  Why deface artists that poured there heart and soul into their music by bleeping words out? Its just because some people are just to controlling or are to lazy to monitor what kids listen to and watch.

 I have the right of freedom of speech and expression.  I don't have the right to tell people not to use certain words no matter what the definition of those words are. Louis CK totally hit the nail with the whole Faggot thing www.youtube.com/watch. People just need to lighten up laugh, which is easy for me I think just about everything is funny.  Im glad I can laugh at things that some people can't, Id live a pretty gay life if that were the case. If I have to stop saying words why am I the  one making a compromise on my freedom? Id tell them either you let me say a few words and i'll stop saying certain words, otherwise no deal, it seems like a fair deal to me. Im a reasonable guy and I try not to offend people but its all about the definition of the word.   Id say ahh man that is so gay in a crowd of homosexuals or thats retarded in a group of Retards.   Just like Carlos Mencia said if you can't tell a joke about retards in front of retards you have no right to say that joke at all anywhere else.  Same thing in my book goes with the way you use words.

---

Originally posted by Sanya /boggle When I last checked this thread, it was two pages long. Then I stopped checking it, because it was a holiday weekend, and the only time I spent on the computer was for paying work. And my goodness. Guys, this was kind of a "low hanging fruit" week. For my more insider-y columns I try to interview people currently working in the industry. Last week being the week before a holiday, a lot of employed people weren't on IM. So it was less an inside the industry column than it was an inside the game column. Anyway, I needed something fast and simple. It struck me as interesting that in a number of anecdotes grouped close together, people acted with courtesy and respect for each other - took into account that the things they said might offend or hurt people that they couldn't see. And yes, I was aware it would start a discussion... which, um, is currently my job? It does bother me that whenever I try to say basically  "listen, these words coming from someone we can't see and don't know can be hurtful," the response usually degenerates to "well, *I* never had a slave." Get a grip, please. There is a ton of respectable scholarship out there about privilege and invisible benefits, etc. http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf Yes, it's about white privilege, but it can apply to other situations. Saying that a particular group is at a disadvantage in our "culture" is not assigning blame for it. Finally, if I were going to answer the various people saying context matters when you use words that can be harmful... YES. And the open chat channel in an MMO where you cannot see any of the people you're talking with, where you don't know their backgrounds and experiences? IS NEVER THE RIGHT CONTEXT. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear! Seriously. If you want to swear or act like an ass or reveal your own favorite -ism, do it in guild chat or PM.  

---

Im not going to even bother with asking if this is a serious response. You madam are a rude and an intolerant dross! It was clear from the jump what your intentions were by writing this drivel. Its patronizing to think, after reading your declaration, that you were trying to simply convey  "listen, these words coming from someone we can't see and don't know can be hurtful," . To be perfectly clear, I dont believe anyone visiting this site has ever "had a slave". With that said, its blasphemous what you really had intention to convey,  an agenda to spew vitriolic bile onto the common forum goers at a gaming & mmo community website.
 

To suggest that because someone uses a series of words, with multiple definition, in a mmog, that could be misconstrued, misinterpreted, or flat out blocked from personally affecting your societal watch group, would require you to create a pathetic piece to make notice of horrible oppressions of the long since remanded past. Your progressive lunacy will fail against reasonable participating people. Its unecessary to bring such disgusting hate to a gaming website. Can we not go anywhere without code-pinkers like you from screaming out some dopey injustices from (again) remanded past?

Something is seriously wrong if you believe that anyone within the borders of america have even a fraction less opportunity when compared to one of white skin. This is a highly uneducated belief if that is what I comprehend from this... Saying that a particular group is at a disadvantage in our "culture" is not assigning blame for it. That is outrageous and callous!
 

I could say a hell of a lot to individuals all over the world that wouldnt bring to mind the progressively ruinous vision you're plagued with Ms. Weathers. You should be ashamed and resign your position. This community deserves far better than people with malignant viewpoints such as yours.

Originally posted by Sanya

/boggle

When I last checked this thread, it was two pages long. Then I stopped checking it, because it was a holiday weekend, and the only time I spent on the computer was for paying work.

And my goodness.

Guys, this was kind of a "low hanging fruit" week. For my more insider-y columns I try to interview people currently working in the industry. Last week being the week before a holiday, a lot of employed people weren't on IM. So it was less an inside the industry column than it was an inside the game column.

Anyway, I needed something fast and simple. It struck me as interesting that in a number of anecdotes grouped close together, people acted with courtesy and respect for each other - took into account that the things they said might offend or hurt people that they couldn't see. And yes, I was aware it would start a discussion... which, um, is currently my job?

It does bother me that whenever I try to say basically  "listen, these words coming from someone we can't see and don't know can be hurtful," the response usually degenerates to "well, *I* never had a slave."

Get a grip, please. There is a ton of respectable scholarship out there about privilege and invisible benefits, etc.

http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

Yes, it's about white privilege, but it can apply to other situations.

Saying that a particular group is at a disadvantage in our "culture" is not assigning blame for it.

Finally, if I were going to answer the various people saying context matters when you use words that can be harmful... YES. And the open chat channel in an MMO where you cannot see any of the people you're talking with, where you don't know their backgrounds and experiences? IS NEVER THE RIGHT CONTEXT. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear! Seriously. If you want to swear or act like an ass or reveal your own favorite -ism, do it in guild chat or PM.

 

 

If you were aware it was going to start a discussion then what's the problem?  Did you actually think everyone was going to write, "Spot on Sanya! Couldn't agree more!".  Much as some might want us to be and contrary to what some would impose we're not lemmings so we're going to have different points of view on the matter and quite frankly there are points in your article that can be more than fairly argued about as to how legitimate they might be or if its really fair to qualify someone making a blatant racial slur to someone using a phrase used quite commonly by some without the slightest implication or relevance towards trying to offend someone.

No, I don't agree with everyone's point of view on this subject.  I suppose you could say I'm in the grey area because I don't think you're completely right about what is truly offensive and denotes unacceptable chit chat nor do I deem that it should just be a vast free for all where you can say whatever you want whenever without, if nothing else, fearing the repurcussions of said actions.  It would be nice if they just felt the need to keep it to themselves from a moralistic point of view but we know that just isn't going to happen with some. 

That also doesn't mean you should have to "walk on egg shells" with everything you say or do and to an extent some that harp on what they deem should be socially deemed acceptable or improper do nothing but create a problem rather than actually resolve or dilute one.

 I'm not surprised you're defending your point of view but again the way you go about it...well...heh

One could make the argument that your post is actually offensive and also unneccessary least in parts.  I know why you did it but you're actually going to call them out while sinking to their level? People in glass houses...

Always entertaining though, I can't wait to tell The Man at our next meeting.  Our conquest for world domination grows ever nearer all the time

 Edit: So I actually bothered to read that theses.  It has an interesting point and in parts its spot on.  It's also outdated as hell and irrelevant in other parts to the point it takes away some credence from the overall validity of the piece.  Certainly not trash but not sure I would use that to make my point considering how outdated it is.  The copyright might be 1988 but reads older than that least to me.  It's a shame that all of those points were valid at one point or another but to try and say that's the way things are now in this day and age across the board frankly isn't true.  Still, it is noteworthy to take a look at and gain some perspective on matters especially for some that might be completely out of touch with things in general.

Can't take the heat of critisim , get out of the writing business.  I can honestly say , your stereo pictoerial of LotRO "one button pushing": quest is completely bullshit. You're talking to mmo players who play the games, not some ass frack who is passing by a blog for an interesting read. The first mistake is you miss read your audience, and just lumped us all in  as one form of sheep. You second mistake is dramatization of actual accurance of facts.

Think a Comp I class could help you size up the proper frame work in creating well indowed article that would cater to the audience at mmorpg.com. but what you just wrote this time, was one of the worst articles I've seen on this website in the past 3 years I've been posting and reading here.

Originally posted by TheMaelstrom

Originally posted by Newfr

First of all, i belive that all that "poliical correct" thing is nonsence. With that thing someone just trying to enforce his/her point of view on what is offencive and what isn't.

Well, i belive that if every one will start to think would his/her words offence some one or not - world will fall in silence. Just because you can't be absolutly sure, that you'll not offence one (or more) of 6 (or more?) billions people out there? Even ramdomly typed letters have a chance to do so, i belive. Not everyone know all meanings of words and sleng in other countries. There is no such thing like universal culture. What is ok to use in in Russia, can be offencive in USA. For example, in Russia world that mean black guy is "negr". It's very close to oh-so-feared "N" word in USA, so there will be someone for sure who will find it offencive. But Russia never had colony in Africa, never used it's native people as slaves and this word never been offencive in original meaning. Not even words, actions can be explained in different manner. For example good old European (? never been in America, so dunno how it's there) tradition for male to open up door before female and let her in first. I belive some feminist can find it very offencive and give me a long speach about male dominance, but in Russia that is norm of behaviour for polite people and if you don't do so traditionalist will find that offencive and count you as barbarian at least. Speaking about culture. It can differ so much... for example in most of muslim countries male dominance is absolute. If husband don't like what his wife speakiing or doing he can seamply beat her. And that is absolutly normal. And if you will try to interract - he will beat you too, because it's none of your business. Such behaviar is unacceptable for western culture. It's unacceptable for me (living in European part of Russia), but it's ok inCaucasian region. So even in one country what is offencive and what isn't can differ a lot. And now you trying to apply your rules on whole Earth? You making me laugh - people around the world differ too much. And who said that your rules is the right ones?

So i belive that people just inventing problems for themselves. If you want to find something offencive - you will find something for sure even if that someone doing or speaking something that is perfectly ok in his/her country.

And sorry for my English =)
 

 

I understand what you're trying to say here, but in this particular case I don't think it applies. The author was relating a story from a game being played on an American server. In that case, geographical tolerances and/or bigotry are less of a factor, in my opinion.

I've traveled all over the USA for work and pleasure, and I can't think of a place I've visited where no blacks would be offended by the casual use of the n-word toward complete strangers, nor can I think of a place where no gays would be offended by casual use of the word "gay" as a derogatory slur.

Mind you, I'm not saying I advocate policing the internet. I'm just pointing out why I disagree with your statement. Hell... if they started policing due to swearing, I'd be tossed out of every game eventually. I use "colorful" language as a part of my daily speech. :P

Actually Newrf is right on track for in my time I have seen over and over and can see it here as well. The only ones ever offended by anything in this arena are those looking to be offended so they can make some drama of the situation. As far as racial comments go I have seen one of a race get offended and standing right next to them someone of the same race laughing about it.

Again the REALITY is you only get offended if you CHOSE to.....none of this BS will hurt you, kill you or take away your food or shelter...it doesn't steal your car or take over your company...it doesn't kick your grandma in the knee or break a window...it wont pee in your coffee or sleep with your husband.

Some of you people need to seriously get a grip, it's you that are a danger with this and are the ones truly distasteful. Programed from youth like drones to react like others think you should instead of ever learning to think/act for yourselves, shame most of you wont even realize it.

Happy people don't kill people, offended ones do!

Originally posted by Demonshank

I've read this entire thread and have not been surprised at Ms. Weathers cowardice to respond and support her despicable entry. Its a progressive and sickeningly liberal blame america write up. Placing a picture of Don Imus in a puff piece about a benign phrase from a 15yr old in a game is preposterous. Ms. Weathers is also clearly overly sensitive and disrespectful of anyones viewpoint beyond her own. You should create a site for your soabox of lunacy, madam.

This is a gaming site. Which should be used to discuss aspects of gaming. This social and political garbage is best discussed at more suitable places. My suggestion would be whatever hate america website she subscibes to currently. Zorvan, you're completely right on with your perception. Also, I agree with the majority of opinion and response you've made here.

Its beyond time we move on and stop with all this hatred. We in america have defeated the cultural inequities of the past. We are NOT 'african-american, hispanic-american, white-american'. If you're born here(or leagally immigrate) in this country you are afforded the same open ceiling and open floor within the law. Its just that simple. You're american!! We need to realize this bigotry and cultural(political in reality) sniping only makes the reasonable thinking majority question how long will the blame game keep going.

This{US} is the greatest country in the world. The more effort and harder you work is what determines your outcome. Ask President Obama. Ask the men and women of the supreme court. Ask coaches and owners in all major sports leagues. Doctors, lawyers, and professors of logical thinking. It is not easy, nor should be. There needs to be no standard for one and all. The kind of nanny state socialism creates and sustains is mediocrity at best. You'll never be any higher or lower than your neighbor(this is a whole other convo in itself). The bars are set by the government and all you get is medial sustenance. Might as well burn a number in your forehead cause thats about all you are. Nothing makes you any different than the person next door.

I think this piece was also written to start contoversy and works towards the site definition of 'trolling'. It should be romoved and if she is employed/compensated in any way it should be witheld and reprimanded strongly. Several viewpoints on gaming is useful here, but bringing in an unchallenged viewpoint by a substantial writer on the header box is bias and creates contempt. This isnt the place to spout your social initiatives and standards Ms. Weathers, please take it somewhere that this would seem appropriate.

  I strongly disagree with her viewpoints/opinions but I also support her right to state them......

Otherwise I might not have had the opportunity to correct her! !:P

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"Originally posted by Sanya

Finally, if I were going to answer the various people saying context matters when you use words that can be harmful... YES. And the open chat channel in an MMO where you cannot see any of the people you're talking with, where you don't know their backgrounds and experiences? IS NEVER THE RIGHT CONTEXT. I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear! Seriously. If you want to swear or act like an ass or reveal your own favorite -ism, do it in guild chat or PM."

         The ONLY way it can EVER be harmful in a game is if someone reading w/e does not know how to manage their emotions thus harming themselves with their own self made distress. This is directly controlled by a decision process in the brain...as in YOU DECIDED TO BECOME HARMED. People would do the whole world a favor if they stopped trying to blame others for their own lack of emotional management.

So it is wrong to be a bigot but it is good to be a bitch? Yes we all know if it is something you are doing is as a woman then that automatically makes it alright. Thank you for that bit of nonsense.

Originally posted by grimfall

There's a lot of irony in this article from Sanya.

 

She's quick to point out that she condemns racial and sexual insults and sterotypes... then she proceeds to sterotype MMO gamers by acting shocked that they object to people using certain deragotory words and report bugs without expecting any compensation.  Too bad MMO players aren't a protected class, then Sanya would now be fired and blacklisted in the community.

 

Sanya, sterotyping people is a bad thing to do, even if your government hasn't passed laws against it.  Grow up.

Yes I took the same from that article.

Then continues to basically call all mmo players basement dweller's also.

Totally hypocritical and yet another rubbish article of her on her soapbox,  really wish MMORPG.com would just get rid of her becoming seriously tired of her drivel and get it replaced with genuine articles on "The MMO Underbelly" and not the current weekly "Sanya's Soapbox" we currently have.

Ouch.

I think this article was written as space filler, as well as to stimulate conversation.  I am not sure Sanya expected this serious of a reaction to it though.

Cut her a little slack, I have always enjoyed Sanya's articles, I just think this one made a bigger splash than she anticipated.  I highly doubt there is really an evil mastermind plot behind it.  It is an opinion piece meant to share a bit of the MMO world with the public.  It is unfortunate that it generated a giant target on her forehead.

Honestly though, it's been one hell of a conversation!

For the record: I'm entirely sick of hearing that "white heterosexual males automatically have it easier than X, Y, or Z category."

That's as horrible as saying " I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life."

Because, you know, white people are so busy holding everyone else down that they don't have time to be as naturally talented as any other demographic.

p.s. I am not white, I'm just tired of people spouting garbage that is 30 years outdated. It simply isn't true anymore. White people are discriminated against as much as anyone else.  I really don't think that people should have to feel apologetic for being born white, or think that they should have to feel sorry for anyone not white. 

I'm pretty much with Zorvan on everything except the Sanya bashing.  I don't really think the article was meant to be as nefarious as he made out in the last couple posts of his.

Oh, this won't do. Sanya's great contribution to racial relations being off the front page? We can't have that, so I'll just put it back there.

Not suprised that this thread is still going.

Here is the thing people:

Some of you are using words that offend people either because you think its cool or accepted or on purpose. 

You could use other words.

There are MANY words available in the dictionary with the meaning you're looking for.

If you continue to use them just to offend or get attention, you're a jerk.

Here's a list for you:

junkie
gay
bigoted
bitch
ignorant
jerk
crazy
excrement
hell
rabid weasels

All of these words, at one time or another, used to have more "power." There was force behind using these words. Some a little less (junkie, ignorant) while others still upset people (bitch, gay, hell) who think you'll burn in *ahem* hell for saying such words.

The only word Sanya doesn't say directly is nigger. Oooh bad word! Oh no wait, that's what one of my black (gasp, I said black) friends calls me every time we see each other. And guess what? I say it back.

Words evolve and change, both with culture changes as well as personal changes. While yes, there are more "intelligent" words to use instead of the ones listed above, that doesn't change the fact that these words HAVE lost their meaning. I remember when calling another woman a bitch would start a fight. Now? Women, like Sanya, are "proud" to be what used mean that a woman was a female mutt that would let any and every stray dog bang her.

Gay and nigger are just like bitch and hell. Time will pass, and the words will change.

PS: Gotta love how on MMORPG we can talk about this stuff without worrying about filters or masks :)

For the record: I'm entirely sick of hearing that "white heterosexual males automatically have it easier than X, Y, or Z category."

That's as horrible as saying " I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life."

Because, you know, white people are so busy holding everyone else down that they don't have time to be as naturally talented as any other demographic.

As someone who *is* white, I can attest to white privilege.

Sure I have been affected by prejudice because I was born into a poor family in a trailer park.

The difference is, I can LEAVE that trailer park, cut off my mullet and apply for a job or a loan and the person on the other side see's a white person. 

The fact of the matter is, you cannot leave the color of your skin.

THAT is white privilege.  I can CHOOSE the context that I am viewed in.  This is a white dominated country. 

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

 

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

If you actually understood "other people's cultures"...and knew the shit they had to suffer through with those words...you wouldn't be using them. That understanding you are trying to bring up is a two way street. You want respect, you give respect. I know plenty of places down here in Dallas that you as a 20 y/o white kid, if you said the N word you'd be dead in a matter of seconds. No matter how cool, or down you thought you were.

Some words still have deep roots in old meanings and despite what you may see on MTV or other television, it's not how the real world works.

 

I'd be dead because those people are ignorant. Slavery is over, get over it.  It's perfectly acceptable to use the nigger where I live. Black people use to in reference to other black people. White people just it when referring to their black friends, and even black people use it when referring to their white friends. Nigger these days is seemly another word for "Dawg" or "homie" or whatever buddy word you want to replace it with.

Time for you to enter the real world and grow up.

And thanks for making my point. You only preach "understanding" when it benefits your point. You don't truly under "Understanding". If you did, you'd understand why some people haven't "gotten over it".

What you say/use in your group or click of friends doesn't mean it right to use it with people you don't know. If I walked up to you on the street and said "Hey dumbass, what time is it?" I don't think you'd be too happy about it. By the way you're responding here I'm pretty sure you'd want to try to square up on me. Well, I call my friends that all the time, though. So it's ok to call you that out of the blue having never met you, right?

Anyway, I remember when I was 20. Noone could tell me what to do or see reason, and I'm not going to continue to try that with you. Get some more living under your belt, go up to some random black person you never met and call him that. Then, if you're still around, we can chat later.

Peace.

Edit: Oh, and it had nothing to do with slavery, my point that is. There are plenty of people still around who were alive in the 1960s during the Civil Rights movement who clearly remember and have no use for the word. All these black friends that you have...why don't you go over and sit down with one of them's grandparents and ask them how they feel about it. I bet you'd find more than a few that aren't happy with it.

Well said, Khalathwyr, respect!

@ kalagaraz: You preach of "ignorance", and yet  you think that  things that you do and find those things acceptable must also be acceptable to everyone else... is that not ignorance? I call hypocrite on that one.

This is one of the most important articles written on this website.

Words are much more than mere than "breath in the air". Words offer the means to meaning. And they betray people, much more than they are aware. When someone does not know a word, he does not know the idea. We grasp the world by the words we give things. And never we betray ourselves more in the public as by the bad words and curses we use.

Often are such views bashed as PC and as censorship of so called freedom. But freedom ends where it harasses people, where it degrades the personal honor and intregrity of another. That is the foundation of every civilization. Without verbal respect, without care in words, there can be no peaceful society, and the internet must not become a morally devoid space, where rules of civilized behavior are null. Otherwise we open the door for barbarism and ethical decay.

We must care for the words we say! It is utterly foolish to claim, a person uses the word "gay" as negative and does NOT have some hate against gay people. Or as it may be with any other similar use of these words. That claims a totally wrong concept of empathy. Every halfway mentally sane person has the ability to feel how calling others in a degrading way hurt them. Everyone can feel that. So it is a lie to claim, that someone uses such words in harrassing ways and is not aware of it. They say "it is common used now". Well, since when is THAT an excuse? If rape or stealing becomes common, does that justify it? It does not take away the individual responsibility of a person A BIT, that someone else is doing that, too.

The basis of civilization is empathy about when we hurt others with what we do and say. Words have meaning and power. If this were not so, some groups were not so eager to censor them. But forbidding some words is not censorship, it is protection from harassment. While you are free to say what you want, freedom of speech does NOT contain that you can say EVERY word or that you can say it everywhere! When you shout out "BOMB" in an airplane, and cause the disturbance, you can't rely on the freedom of speech! Using bad words as such is always a severe lack of empathy, AT LEAST, usually a revelation of the true character of hate, something which is not the noble civility which we must find, but gross prejudice and hate. Such notions must not be allowed to govern our everyday behavior. Freedom is never limitless, and people are never free from the responsibility of their words and actions. Freedom of result is something unrealistic. Everything you say has a result, and calling people in degrading ways has results, even if they seem to minimal in your life to see it.

It is just as with environment pollution. Sure, you may say, what difference does the little bit of litter do, which I just cast into the nature? It is so little, it make no difference. It was just one cigarette I threw away. But let it be a dry forest, and an entire region can burn to cinders. Even small words can change the world. The words of Christ were just words, and yet they changed the world. Or the words of the Declaration of Indepence or the Declaration of Humans Rights. All "just words", and yet, they changed the world fundamentally. It is such small things, words, which change the world, and no supposed declaration of freedom of speech can rid us from the results of our words. Words change the world. They are the first small seeds of the future. That is why we must learn to take care in what we say. Even in small, it is something everyone can see. How easy have not many of us ruined a relationship or a friendship, merely by "one wrong word"? Words are no small matter; oh no, my friends. Words are powerful, more powerful than all swords and bombs of the world. And they can cut deeper and more painful than any knife could. It is that empathy towards the suffering of others that you cause by careless words, which a civilized person must nurture.

By and large, the mayority of the society still is racist in it's core. I find that as a fact. People mask that, they behave and pretend to me modern, tolerant people. But in reality, the racism and sexism ("you fight like a girl" Few face the fact how bad such a statement in reality is!) are still part of many people's view. Against Jews, Blacks, Gays and others. For many tolerance is just a thin paper mask they wear, which breaks all to easy when they are aggravated, and then the ugly face of humanity shows. I have become fatalistic about this. Look at this thread. So many people mask their hate and racism with seemingly elegant arguments. With such people, there is no reasoning, no debate. As the Social Scientist Adorno said "you can not argue with Nazis". End of story. They may not be Nazis, but people with racist, sexist or other such prejudices, there is no way to "bring them to reason". The root is hate, and hate can't be argued away, nor will they ever admit it.

For me as a gay man, I have accepted the fact, that the majority of the especially male ppopulace will ALWAYS hate us. I don't think that will ever change. What remains for me is that word out of "V for Vendetta", which I greatly adore: "I don't understand why they hate us so much." For hate it is, no matter how they want to twist their words into triviality. Civilization is for most a thin layer under which hate and the sheer barbary of violence dwells.

Originally posted by mOoK

Not suprised that this thread is still going.

Here is the thing people:

Some of you are using words that offend people either because you think its cool or accepted or on purpose. 

You could use other words.

There are MANY words available in the dictionary with the meaning you're looking for.

If you continue to use them just to offend or get attention, you're a jerk.

My pennies for thought:

1) I congratulate Sanya for tackling a sensitive and high disputed topic, and I do believe it's relevent, because it is a part of the game if not also gameplay. I greatly enjoy your articles.

2) Sanya, please take a chill pill; not everyone thinks of words the way you do, so please don't judge them anymore than they would judge you.

3) Words do have power. The power is in the context of when it is used; it is in the perception of those whom it is being used against. They can inspire or destroy, and take us on journeys we cannot physically travel.

4) While we shouldn't hold the history of a word against itself, I think we should be considerate when we do choose to use them. The word nigger is a good example of this. The word is steeped in history of slave owners who held power over black slaves; it was used to tear down at their pride, and meant to break their spirit. However, slavery was abolished, and we are on a track to view all people as human beings. In certain instances, it has become less taboo to say that word. I would simply reiterate, think carefully of when and where you use that word and to whom you are addressing.

5) The English language, like all languages, is rich in vocabulary with volumes of words. Some of them are more effective in conveying what you want to get across than "charged" words.

6) My view point on general/guild chat is this: when I see derogatory words used, especially in a incited/hateful context, I shrug off the writer's use of that kind of language. I do admit that it sometimes gets very distracting to read all the smacktalk, so I just minimize chat window then. If it was directed at me, I would try to find the cause for the need to use such words, explain that it is hurtful if I wish to continue any type of further communication with that player, and failing that I would block them and/or report them.

7) A thought a free speech, amongst a many freedoms we enjoy... The term is meant for having the ability to express ourselves without fear of government. However, as a member of the more evolved species, I care for some consideration in how that's expressed.

8) Bear in mind that not having visual cues hamper our effectiveness when communicating, since much of our communication is non-verbal (aka tone, body language, and word choice).

So she writes how she is politically correct, and implies with examples how she doesn't like stereotypes.

Then she proceeds to say that all the people playing MMOs are people "in their basements". And that because someone is a politician they cheat on their wives. Hypocritical much?

But she also said she was playing LotRO. Turbine has generally always been a step above another very popular title on it's chat control. And I think the types of people who are drawn to LotRO tend to have an average maturity level higher then the average maturity level in the other popular title.

Although there is a reason why the olympics events are broken up by the sex on the individuals, men are physically stronger then woman and that is why their distances times etc are always better then womens. Therefore why the "throws like a girl" phrase is used as an attack against a guy. It isn't a sterotype to say the strongest men are always stronger then the strongest women, it is nature. But apparently she is very offended by this.

Originally posted by Elikal

This is one of the most important articles written on this website.

Words are much more than mere than "breath in the air". Words offer the means to meaning. And they betray people, much more than they are aware. When someone does not know a word, he does not know the idea. We grasp the world by the words we give things. And never we betray ourselves more in the public as by the bad words and curses we use.

Often are such views bashed as PC and as censorship of so called freedom. But freedom ends where it harasses people, where it degrades the personal honor and intregrity of another. That is the foundation of every civilization. Without verbal respect, without care in words, there can be no peaceful society, and the internet must not become a morally devoid space, where rules of civilized behavior are null. Otherwise we open the door for barbarism and ethical decay.

 

We must care for the words we say! It is utterly foolish to claim, a person uses the word "gay" as negative and does NOT have some hate against gay people. Or as it may be with any other similar use of these words. That claims a totally wrong concept of empathy. Every halfway mentally sane person has the ability to feel how calling others in a degrading way hurt them. Everyone can feel that. So it is a lie to claim, that someone uses such words in harrassing ways and is not aware of it. They say "it is common used now". Well, since when is THAT an excuse? If rape or stealing becomes common, does that justify it? It does not take away the individual responsibility of a person A BIT, that someone else is doing that, too.

By and large, the mayority of the society still is racist in it's core. I find that as a fact. People mask that, they behave and pretend to me modern, tolerant people. But in reality, the racism and sexism ("you fight like a girl" Few face the fact how bad such a statement in reality is!) are still part of many people's view. Against Jews, Blacks, Gays and others. For many tolerance is just a thin paper mask they wear, which breaks all to easy when they are aggravated, and then the ugly face of humanity shows. I have become fatalistic about this.

For me as a gay man, I have accepted the fact, that the majority of the especially male ppopulace will ALWAYS hate us. I don't think that will ever change. What remains for me is that word out of "V for Vendetta", which I greatly adore: "I don't understand why they hate us so much." For hate it is, no matter how they want to twist their words into triviality. Civilization is for most a thin layer under which hate and the sheer barbary of violence dwells.

Sorry you feel that way but for many of us that just simply isn't true.  I don't hate gay people.  Frankly, i don't care what sexual orientation you have.  Not simply because quite frankly it's really none of my business but also simply because what difference does it make to me as to what sex you're attracted to?

I have three gay friends and I can honestly say none of them are offended by those that use the "gay" term in the context presented initially in this article.  As I said before the one uses the term herself more than anyone else I know personally.  Thankfully, this discussion never comes up with them because they're more than comftorable being around me just as who they are as I am around them.  We talk about everything from relationships to what we think of the latest movie being hyped around town.  I'm not going to sit here and type everyone is that way because we both know that isn't the case but to think the majority of us hetero males hate you or wish you ill just isn't true.  Yes, there are those of us that are assholes.  There are also others of us that  don't care if you're gay or straight and can accept a person for who they are-not who we think they should be.

People's outlooks and perspectives on issues such as these are changing.  It certainly isn't happening as fast as I would like to see it but there has been change mostly for the better in these areas.  People, in general, would do a lot more to help change the atmosphere more by learning acceptance and understanding across the board rather than rehashing this me vs you mentality.  It does nothing but feed into the vitriol of prejudice that is still allowed to rear its ugly head from time to time.  Trying to say some hate filled person using a slanderous bigoted word is the same as saying a  catchphrase such as  "you throw like a girl", "that's so gay", or "girly man" is ridiculous.  They aren't the same and aren't used in the same connotation.  If you want to continue to think people that use those hate homosexuals or wish them ill then so be it.  Not going to change your mind just realize that, least from everyone I've ever known that says those things, you would be dead wrong.

 About the closest we ever come to being a "bigot" or "showing hatred"  towards each other is when they joke around about me being straight and the crap I have to deal with and I poke fun back at them about being gay and some of the junk they go through.  If that equates to us being uneducated bigots writhing in hatred somehow to some then so be it because we have learned how to have a sense of humor about things and not to assume the worst in everyone.  Nor are we ,thankfully, going to help this bullshit along even more by further pushing this concept people's differences whatever they may be need to have a spotlight shown upon them or treated differently simply because they  have different values, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. That doesn't change things.  It just further retreads a need to categorize people and treat them based solely on some primitive scale that says they need to be treated different or something as silly as the color of one's skin or their nationality should matter when in essence it really shouldn't.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Elikal

This is one of the most important articles written on this website.

Words are much more than mere than "breath in the air". Words offer the means to meaning. And they betray people, much more than they are aware. When someone does not know a word, he does not know the idea. We grasp the world by the words we give things. And never we betray ourselves more in the public as by the bad words and curses we use.

Often are such views bashed as PC and as censorship of so called freedom. But freedom ends where it harasses people, where it degrades the personal honor and intregrity of another. That is the foundation of every civilization. Without verbal respect, without care in words, there can be no peaceful society, and the internet must not become a morally devoid space, where rules of civilized behavior are null. Otherwise we open the door for barbarism and ethical decay.

 

We must care for the words we say! It is utterly foolish to claim, a person uses the word "gay" as negative and does NOT have some hate against gay people. Or as it may be with any other similar use of these words. That claims a totally wrong concept of empathy. Every halfway mentally sane person has the ability to feel how calling others in a degrading way hurt them. Everyone can feel that. So it is a lie to claim, that someone uses such words in harrassing ways and is not aware of it. They say "it is common used now". Well, since when is THAT an excuse? If rape or stealing becomes common, does that justify it? It does not take away the individual responsibility of a person A BIT, that someone else is doing that, too.

By and large, the mayority of the society still is racist in it's core. I find that as a fact. People mask that, they behave and pretend to me modern, tolerant people. But in reality, the racism and sexism ("you fight like a girl" Few face the fact how bad such a statement in reality is!) are still part of many people's view. Against Jews, Blacks, Gays and others. For many tolerance is just a thin paper mask they wear, which breaks all to easy when they are aggravated, and then the ugly face of humanity shows. I have become fatalistic about this.

For me as a gay man, I have accepted the fact, that the majority of the especially male ppopulace will ALWAYS hate us. I don't think that will ever change. What remains for me is that word out of "V for Vendetta", which I greatly adore: "I don't understand why they hate us so much." For hate it is, no matter how they want to twist their words into triviality. Civilization is for most a thin layer under which hate and the sheer barbary of violence dwells.

 

Sorry you feel that way but for many of us that just simply isn't true.  I don't hate gay people.  Frankly, i don't care what sexual orientation you have.  Not simply because quite frankly it's really none of my business but also simply because what difference does it make to me as to what sex you're attracted to?

I have three gay friends and I can honestly say none of them are offended by those that use the "gay" term in the context presented initially in this article.  As I said before the one uses the term herself more than anyone else I know personally.  Thankfully, this discussion never comes up with them because they're more than comftorable being around me just as who they are as I am around them.  We talk about everything from relationships to what we think of the latest movie being hyped around town.  I'm not going to sit here and type everyone is that way because we both know that isn't the case but to think the majority of us hetero males hate you or wish you ill just isn't true.  Yes, there are those of us that are assholes.  There are also others of us that  don't care if you're gay or straight and can accept a person for who they are-not who we think they should be.

People's outlooks and perspectives on issues such as these are changing.  It certainly isn't happening as fast as I would like to see it but there has been change mostly for the better in these areas.  People, in general, would do a lot more to help change the atmosphere more by learning acceptance and understanding across the board rather than rehashing this me vs you mentality.  It does nothing but feed into the vitriol of prejudice that is still allowed to rear its ugly head from time to time.  Trying to say some hate filled person using a slanderous bigoted word is the same as saying a  catchphrase such as  "you throw like a girl", "that's so gay", or "girly man" is ridiculous.  They aren't the same and aren't used in the same connotation.  If you want to continue to think people that use those hate homosexuals or wish them ill then so be it.  Not going to change your mind just realize that, least from everyone I've ever known that says those things, you would be dead wrong.

 

People like you won't be educated. I stopped trying long ago. Pity is, you don't even realized the damage you do. Words are the beginning of everything.

It is why politicians start to call wars "incidents" and death "collateral damage".

Using bad words about minorities is the beginning of a road whose logical end is Auschwitz - the Concentration Camp. It is like boiling the frog. When you toss a frog into boiling water, he will jump out, but if you warm it gradually, he will stay until his death. Myth or not, this is what happens with the slow loss of empathy and civil behavior, and the internet is ripe with that. A small step, but the first taking away of respect is what opens the door to more. That is why we must fight those first breaks of civility before bigger steps follow. You fight issues when they are yet small.

That you gay friends dont say to you to find this offensive just proves how victimized gay people are, when they don't even allow themselves to realize their victimization. It is what victims often do. They deny reality and say "it isnt so bad".

It is YOUR lack of empathy that is the issue here, not their issue to tell you. Maybe you look inside yourself and ask yourself why you and the others are so apparently un-emphatic that you do no longer feel the damage you do to others, even when they say it to you.

Originally posted by ElikaOriginally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Elikal

This is one of the most important articles written on this website.

Words are much more than mere than "breath in the air". Words offer the means to meaning. And they betray people, much more than they are aware. When someone does not know a word, he does not know the idea. We grasp the world by the words we give things. And never we betray ourselves more in the public as by the bad words and curses we use.

Often are such views bashed as PC and as censorship of so called freedom. But freedom ends where it harasses people, where it degrades the personal honor and intregrity of another. That is the foundation of every civilization. Without verbal respect, without care in words, there can be no peaceful society, and the internet must not become a morally devoid space, where rules of civilized behavior are null. Otherwise we open the door for barbarism and ethical decay.

 

We must care for the words we say! It is utterly foolish to claim, a person uses the word "gay" as negative and does NOT have some hate against gay people. Or as it may be with any other similar use of these words. That claims a totally wrong concept of empathy. Every halfway mentally sane person has the ability to feel how calling others in a degrading way hurt them. Everyone can feel that. So it is a lie to claim, that someone uses such words in harrassing ways and is not aware of it. They say "it is common used now". Well, since when is THAT an excuse? If rape or stealing becomes common, does that justify it? It does not take away the individual responsibility of a person A BIT, that someone else is doing that, too.

By and large, the mayority of the society still is racist in it's core. I find that as a fact. People mask that, they behave and pretend to me modern, tolerant people. But in reality, the racism and sexism ("you fight like a girl" Few face the fact how bad such a statement in reality is!) are still part of many people's view. Against Jews, Blacks, Gays and others. For many tolerance is just a thin paper mask they wear, which breaks all to easy when they are aggravated, and then the ugly face of humanity shows. I have become fatalistic about this.

For me as a gay man, I have accepted the fact, that the majority of the especially male ppopulace will ALWAYS hate us. I don't think that will ever change. What remains for me is that word out of "V for Vendetta", which I greatly adore: "I don't understand why they hate us so much." For hate it is, no matter how they want to twist their words into triviality. Civilization is for most a thin layer under which hate and the sheer barbary of violence dwells.

 

Sorry you feel that way but for many of us that just simply isn't true.  I don't hate gay people.  Frankly, i don't care what sexual orientation you have.  Not simply because quite frankly it's really none of my business but also simply because what difference does it make to me as to what sex you're attracted to?

I have three gay friends and I can honestly say none of them are offended by those that use the "gay" term in the context presented initially in this article.  As I said before the one uses the term herself more than anyone else I know personally.  Thankfully, this discussion never comes up with them because they're more than comftorable being around me just as who they are as I am around them.  We talk about everything from relationships to what we think of the latest movie being hyped around town.  I'm not going to sit here and type everyone is that way because we both know that isn't the case but to think the majority of us hetero males hate you or wish you ill just isn't true.  Yes, there are those of us that are assholes.  There are also others of us that  don't care if you're gay or straight and can accept a person for who they are-not who we think they should be.

People's outlooks and perspectives on issues such as these are changing.  It certainly isn't happening as fast as I would like to see it but there has been change mostly for the better in these areas.  People, in general, would do a lot more to help change the atmosphere more by learning acceptance and understanding across the board rather than rehashing this me vs you mentality.  It does nothing but feed into the vitriol of prejudice that is still allowed to rear its ugly head from time to time.  Trying to say some hate filled person using a slanderous bigoted word is the same as saying a  catchphrase such as  "you throw like a girl", "that's so gay", or "girly man" is ridiculous.  They aren't the same and aren't used in the same connotation.  If you want to continue to think people that use those hate homosexuals or wish them ill then so be it.  Not going to change your mind just realize that, least from everyone I've ever known that says those things, you would be dead wrong.

 

 

People like you won't be educated. I stopped trying long ago. Pity is, you don't even realized the damage you do. Words are the beginning of everything.

It is why politicians start to call wars "incidents" and death "collateral damage".

Using bad words about minorities is the beginning of a road whose logical end is Auschwitz - the Concentration Camp. It is like boiling the frog. When you toss a frog into boiling water, he will jump out, but if you warm it gradually, he will stay until his death. Myth or not, this is what happens with the slow loss of empathy and civil behavior, and the internet is ripe with that. A small step, but the first taking away of respect is what opens the door to more. That is why we must fight those first breaks of civility before bigger steps follow. You fight issues when they are yet small.

That you gay friends dont say to you to find this offensive just proves how victimized gay people are, when they don't even allow themselves to realize their victimization. It is what victims often do. They deny reality and say "it isnt so bad".

It is YOUR lack of empathy that is the issue here, not their issue to tell you. Maybe you look inside yourself and ask yourself why you and the others are so apparently un-emphatic that you do no longer feel the damage you do to others, even when they say it to you.

Right, I don't even use that stupid phrase because it just isn't how I talk.  The reason I know it doesn't bother them is because at times they do.  If anyone is clueless here its you. 

Feel free to keep stereotyping though and assume I lack empathy for others.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by ElikaOriginally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Elikal

This is one of the most important articles written on this website.

Words are much more than mere than "breath in the air". Words offer the means to meaning. And they betray people, much more than they are aware. When someone does not know a word, he does not know the idea. We grasp the world by the words we give things. And never we betray ourselves more in the public as by the bad words and curses we use.

Often are such views bashed as PC and as censorship of so called freedom. But freedom ends where it harasses people, where it degrades the personal honor and intregrity of another. That is the foundation of every civilization. Without verbal respect, without care in words, there can be no peaceful society, and the internet must not become a morally devoid space, where rules of civilized behavior are null. Otherwise we open the door for barbarism and ethical decay.

 

We must care for the words we say! It is utterly foolish to claim, a person uses the word "gay" as negative and does NOT have some hate against gay people. Or as it may be with any other similar use of these words. That claims a totally wrong concept of empathy. Every halfway mentally sane person has the ability to feel how calling others in a degrading way hurt them. Everyone can feel that. So it is a lie to claim, that someone uses such words in harrassing ways and is not aware of it. They say "it is common used now". Well, since when is THAT an excuse? If rape or stealing becomes common, does that justify it? It does not take away the individual responsibility of a person A BIT, that someone else is doing that, too.

By and large, the mayority of the society still is racist in it's core. I find that as a fact. People mask that, they behave and pretend to me modern, tolerant people. But in reality, the racism and sexism ("you fight like a girl" Few face the fact how bad such a statement in reality is!) are still part of many people's view. Against Jews, Blacks, Gays and others. For many tolerance is just a thin paper mask they wear, which breaks all to easy when they are aggravated, and then the ugly face of humanity shows. I have become fatalistic about this.

For me as a gay man, I have accepted the fact, that the majority of the especially male ppopulace will ALWAYS hate us. I don't think that will ever change. What remains for me is that word out of "V for Vendetta", which I greatly adore: "I don't understand why they hate us so much." For hate it is, no matter how they want to twist their words into triviality. Civilization is for most a thin layer under which hate and the sheer barbary of violence dwells.

 

Sorry you feel that way but for many of us that just simply isn't true.  I don't hate gay people.  Frankly, i don't care what sexual orientation you have.  Not simply because quite frankly it's really none of my business but also simply because what difference does it make to me as to what sex you're attracted to?

I have three gay friends and I can honestly say none of them are offended by those that use the "gay" term in the context presented initially in this article.  As I said before the one uses the term herself more than anyone else I know personally.  Thankfully, this discussion never comes up with them because they're more than comftorable being around me just as who they are as I am around them.  We talk about everything from relationships to what we think of the latest movie being hyped around town.  I'm not going to sit here and type everyone is that way because we both know that isn't the case but to think the majority of us hetero males hate you or wish you ill just isn't true.  Yes, there are those of us that are assholes.  There are also others of us that  don't care if you're gay or straight and can accept a person for who they are-not who we think they should be.

People's outlooks and perspectives on issues such as these are changing.  It certainly isn't happening as fast as I would like to see it but there has been change mostly for the better in these areas.  People, in general, would do a lot more to help change the atmosphere more by learning acceptance and understanding across the board rather than rehashing this me vs you mentality.  It does nothing but feed into the vitriol of prejudice that is still allowed to rear its ugly head from time to time.  Trying to say some hate filled person using a slanderous bigoted word is the same as saying a  catchphrase such as  "you throw like a girl", "that's so gay", or "girly man" is ridiculous.  They aren't the same and aren't used in the same connotation.  If you want to continue to think people that use those hate homosexuals or wish them ill then so be it.  Not going to change your mind just realize that, least from everyone I've ever known that says those things, you would be dead wrong.

 

 

People like you won't be educated. I stopped trying long ago. Pity is, you don't even realized the damage you do. Words are the beginning of everything.

It is why politicians start to call wars "incidents" and death "collateral damage".

Using bad words about minorities is the beginning of a road whose logical end is Auschwitz - the Concentration Camp. It is like boiling the frog. When you toss a frog into boiling water, he will jump out, but if you warm it gradually, he will stay until his death. Myth or not, this is what happens with the slow loss of empathy and civil behavior, and the internet is ripe with that. A small step, but the first taking away of respect is what opens the door to more. That is why we must fight those first breaks of civility before bigger steps follow. You fight issues when they are yet small.

That you gay friends dont say to you to find this offensive just proves how victimized gay people are, when they don't even allow themselves to realize their victimization. It is what victims often do. They deny reality and say "it isnt so bad".

It is YOUR lack of empathy that is the issue here, not their issue to tell you. Maybe you look inside yourself and ask yourself why you and the others are so apparently un-emphatic that you do no longer feel the damage you do to others, even when they say it to you.

 

Right, I don't even use that stupid phrase because it just isn't how I talk.  The reason I know it doesn't bother them is because at times they do.  If anyone is clueless here its you. 

Feel free to keep stereotyping though and assume I lack empathy for others.

You understand nothing. I can call myself an ass any day, but that doesn't give YOU the right to call me that.

 Better title. "Grammar nazi fishes for problems, finds them." 

Twelve pages to invoke Godwin's Law on a topic about freedom of speech/sensitivity.  I'm actually rather impressed. 

Originally posted by Elikal 

You understand nothing. I can call myself an ass any day, but that doesn't give YOU the right to call me that.

Sure it does. Just as everyone has the right to use gay and ass and other words, regardless of whether they believe the true, original meaning, or what it's come to mean.

Is the discussion dead already? 

Can I talk?  I hate long threads.  I have skipped almost everything is said here, because I have no time to read 99993 post. 

All I have to say, Is that I have learn something on this thread from the guys that  defend the use of nigger and gay in normal conversations, like in a chat.  And I have learned nothing from the PC (Political Correct) camp 

Originally posted by Sanya

My reaction to the person using the n-word was to simply hit ignore. As this thread is demonstrating, anyone using the word in casual conversation cannot be reasoned with or educated, whereas most of the people using 'gay' as an insult can usually be taught better manners. If not, well, the ignore function doesn't expire if you don't use it right away!

There's just no point in arguing with scum. Ignoring, and on private property such as an MMO server, banning, are the best options if education fails.

Scum?

You call people scum after you try and dictate what people say in open chat? The only education that people need ( for a game ) is this:

Learn to use the /ignore button, and learn not to get offended or "victimized" by a word.

A real journalist needs to be un-bias. You need to be fired.

Originally posted by Teiman

Is the discussion dead already? 

Can I talk?  I hate long threads.  I have skipped almost everything is said here, because I have no time to read 99993 post. 

All I have to say, Is that I have learn something on this thread from the guys that  defend the use of nigger and gay in normal conversations, like in a chat.  And I have learned nothing from the PC (Political Correct) camp 

 

 

I'd day don't worry about PC camp, because you are not there yet. Let's first worry about reading camp, so you'll actually learn of other people's opinions on the matter, and then attend writing camp, so other people can understand you.

Originally posted by Elikal

 You understand nothing. I can call myself an ass any day, but that doesn't give YOU the right to call me that.

...and you do?If so, you haven't shown it yet.  All you've proven is that regardless of one's orientation or ethnicity is that anyone can be just as likely to stereotype, prejudice, and jump to gross mischaracterizations.

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Elikal

This is one of the most important articles written on this website.

Words are much more than mere than "breath in the air". Words offer the means to meaning. And they betray people, much more than they are aware. When someone does not know a word, he does not know the idea. We grasp the world by the words we give things. And never we betray ourselves more in the public as by the bad words and curses we use.

Often are such views bashed as PC and as censorship of so called freedom. But freedom ends where it harasses people, where it degrades the personal honor and intregrity of another. That is the foundation of every civilization. Without verbal respect, without care in words, there can be no peaceful society, and the internet must not become a morally devoid space, where rules of civilized behavior are null. Otherwise we open the door for barbarism and ethical decay.

 

We must care for the words we say! It is utterly foolish to claim, a person uses the word "gay" as negative and does NOT have some hate against gay people. Or as it may be with any other similar use of these words. That claims a totally wrong concept of empathy. Every halfway mentally sane person has the ability to feel how calling others in a degrading way hurt them. Everyone can feel that. So it is a lie to claim, that someone uses such words in harrassing ways and is not aware of it. They say "it is common used now". Well, since when is THAT an excuse? If rape or stealing becomes common, does that justify it? It does not take away the individual responsibility of a person A BIT, that someone else is doing that, too.

By and large, the mayority of the society still is racist in it's core. I find that as a fact. People mask that, they behave and pretend to me modern, tolerant people. But in reality, the racism and sexism ("you fight like a girl" Few face the fact how bad such a statement in reality is!) are still part of many people's view. Against Jews, Blacks, Gays and others. For many tolerance is just a thin paper mask they wear, which breaks all to easy when they are aggravated, and then the ugly face of humanity shows. I have become fatalistic about this.

For me as a gay man, I have accepted the fact, that the majority of the especially male ppopulace will ALWAYS hate us. I don't think that will ever change. What remains for me is that word out of "V for Vendetta", which I greatly adore: "I don't understand why they hate us so much." For hate it is, no matter how they want to twist their words into triviality. Civilization is for most a thin layer under which hate and the sheer barbary of violence dwells.

 

Sorry you feel that way but for many of us that just simply isn't true.  I don't hate gay people.  Frankly, i don't care what sexual orientation you have.  Not simply because quite frankly it's really none of my business but also simply because what difference does it make to me as to what sex you're attracted to?

I have three gay friends and I can honestly say none of them are offended by those that use the "gay" term in the context presented initially in this article.  As I said before the one uses the term herself more than anyone else I know personally.  Thankfully, this discussion never comes up with them because they're more than comftorable being around me just as who they are as I am around them.  We talk about everything from relationships to what we think of the latest movie being hyped around town.  I'm not going to sit here and type everyone is that way because we both know that isn't the case but to think the majority of us hetero males hate you or wish you ill just isn't true.  Yes, there are those of us that are assholes.  There are also others of us that  don't care if you're gay or straight and can accept a person for who they are-not who we think they should be.

People's outlooks and perspectives on issues such as these are changing.  It certainly isn't happening as fast as I would like to see it but there has been change mostly for the better in these areas.  People, in general, would do a lot more to help change the atmosphere more by learning acceptance and understanding across the board rather than rehashing this me vs you mentality.  It does nothing but feed into the vitriol of prejudice that is still allowed to rear its ugly head from time to time.  Trying to say some hate filled person using a slanderous bigoted word is the same as saying a  catchphrase such as  "you throw like a girl", "that's so gay", or "girly man" is ridiculous.  They aren't the same and aren't used in the same connotation.  If you want to continue to think people that use those hate homosexuals or wish them ill then so be it.  Not going to change your mind just realize that, least from everyone I've ever known that says those things, you would be dead wrong.

 

 

People like you won't be educated. I stopped trying long ago. Pity is, you don't even realized the damage you do. Words are the beginning of everything.

It is why politicians start to call wars "incidents" and death "collateral damage".

Using bad words about minorities is the beginning of a road whose logical end is Auschwitz - the Concentration Camp. It is like boiling the frog. When you toss a frog into boiling water, he will jump out, but if you warm it gradually, he will stay until his death. Myth or not, this is what happens with the slow loss of empathy and civil behavior, and the internet is ripe with that. A small step, but the first taking away of respect is what opens the door to more. That is why we must fight those first breaks of civility before bigger steps follow. You fight issues when they are yet small.

That you gay friends dont say to you to find this offensive just proves how victimized gay people are, when they don't even allow themselves to realize their victimization. It is what victims often do. They deny reality and say "it isnt so bad".

It is YOUR lack of empathy that is the issue here, not their issue to tell you. Maybe you look inside yourself and ask yourself why you and the others are so apparently un-emphatic that you do no longer feel the damage you do to others, even when they say it to you.

OMFG saying "gay" does not victimize homosexuals, saying "nigger" does not victimize blacks, saying "cracker" does not victimize whites, saying "redskin" does not victimize me....I remember this BS a few years ago when a small movement wanted the name of the Washington Redskins changed because they claimed it to be offensive. I am one of those "Redskins" predominately speaking and I'm not offended. I am emotionally mature and rather zen about the "bla bla bla" of others IE I have a disposition and desire to be happy and not offended by BS.

Assaulting a homosexual with a broomstick makes him a victim, enslaving a black man makes him a victim, raping a white female makes her a victim and killing an indian makes them a victim.

I walk down the sidewalk with my wife and someone tells her "nice ass"....some guys would fight over this because they manage their emotions like a child would......But I reply with "why yes it is, thx for noticing" and we are happily on our way rather than in front of a police car having to explain why there is some guy on the ground with a broken nose and ribs. My EMPATHY just saved that guys life.

One of the best things about MMOs--WoW, LorRO, etc.--is that you can turn off chat and play in blissful virtual "silence", which is what I do 99.99% of the time.

It isn't necessarily that the chat is offensive; I just find it very distracting and, yes, occasionally, annoying. The only time I use chat is for Guild Chat and in-party chat. Otherwise, no.

I keep waiting for Blizzard (or some MMO developer) to offer "silent servers", wherein players can only communicate using in-game emotes -- much the way Horde and Alliance sometimes communicate in WoW now. I would really like that.

I just find that most in-game (general/OOC) chat is either too inane for words or completely irrelevant to me and thus distracting, so I turn it off. Problem solved.

Originally posted by Teiman

Is the discussion dead already? 

Can I talk?  I hate long threads.  I have skipped almost everything is said here, because I have no time to read 99993 post. 

All I have to say, Is that I have learn something on this thread from the guys that  defend the use of nigger and gay in normal conversations, like in a chat.  And I have learned nothing from the PC (Political Correct) camp 

 

 

I myself was going to write some thing along the lines of what you have said. But you said it with four lines that was taking me 2 paragraphs to write :P  Except to say that this thread is full of fail. This reminds me of something I used to hear  as a kid growing up from my mom and dad. If you have nothing better to say, say nothing at all. And in this case create a bad topic that could be loosely defined as personal agenda  for flame bait.  I come here to read and discuss about one thing... Games. Even though the content of the post does take place in games there are mechanics to deal it with. It's called  block or ignore. I think we all know how to use that.

If anyone would like to share their opinion of Sanya's absolutely brilliant social commentary with the owner of this site, they may like to send a note to admin@mmorpg.com

Originally posted by Dana

"join my guild or we will rape you.”

Oh yeah thats nice! nothing makes me happier than login into a mmo and laughin at this kind of jokes in the chat.

Some random rules from the RoC Miss Sanya should take a moment to read:

MMORPG.com is a site to discuss massively multiplayer online roleplay gaming. While users are encouraged and permitted to use our Off-Topic forum to discuss real life and non-MMORPG gaming, threads concerning sensitive subjects such as religion, politics, or ethics may be locked or deleted if determined out of hand by the MMORPG.com moderator staff.
 

Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums.

Good article.

reading over most of the posts i thought it was a general racists/homophobes/bigots in chat groups, but it comes across that it is much more emotionally rooted.

People use the Nword to ilicit a responce that responce may be position or negative, however they feed on the negative more than the positive. Likewise using the words gay or rape or so forth. Like a litteral vampire they crave the negativity they generate.

And so we end up with the situation where someone who truely might feel offence from a word gives these people a negative responce. which is why when the term "Nvidia is gay" was used people asked why are they happy and so forth, which was a positive responce people didnt find it offensive and so it was rendered null in the terms of the chat group, and so people moved on. However the Nword triggered such a negative outcry that it succeeded in what it planned on doing. If people did the same to the Nword as they did to the gay word it wouldnt be such an issue. It would had shown a maturity we dont normally see from games.

I think now that if someone responded to me "hey nword whats up" i may be more inclined to accept it in the term it is used, not as an offensive term aimed at the black comunity but instead used as the rappers and pop idols use it as a term of endearment, im sure some will find it offensive but i hope those that understand this would accept that the person using it is either, 1 black or 2 ignorant of the terminoloy. Likewise using the word gay in the same concept.

I never think personal attacks on other people or people quoting massive blocks of text should the poster should sit back and consider "is that person attacking me with a knife and i have to defend myself with a shotgun". no they are typing on a forum from the otherside of the planet (possibly) and ill never actually meet them so who cares what they type.

I think life is full of choices and you can either make the choice to fuel fires or you can just accept that some people have different views than others, we arnt all the same and we have all grown up in different circumstances and even different countries / cultures. i would never dream of aproaching a black dude and saying "whats up nword" (i cant even type it im that indoctrinated) i just couldnt see me doing it even if i knew them and they said it was alright i still wouldnt.

Like wise someone who has grown up in a comunity where its normal would see my responce as probbly bizare and strange. Lets all remember we are humans and the internet has provided us to meet and greet with cultures and people from all over the globe.

We dont all think the same.

Words are purely, completely, and utterly subjective. Meaning is interpreted by the receiver, and is affected by social context and expected intent. Basically, words mean whatever the listener/reader believes they mean.

The astute transmitter learns to navigate expected context and subjective interpretation, making sure that their intended message is as close as possible to the interpreted one.

The idiotic transmitter will assume that their form of communication, with its purely subjective qualities, is best and/or that it should be tolerated merely because they're using it. There's nothing that says subjective interpretations must be equally treated, and they often aren't.

Humans are finicky and often cowardly beings. The younger, in general, the more cowardly. Anonymity gives them false courage, but lock them in a room with the people they have issues with, and suddenly their vim and vigor disappear in favor of excuses and accusations. It becomes dangerous if it persists into old age, where ignorance of the subjectivity of interpretation leads to miscommunication or laziness.

Is language evolving? Yes. However, acceptable language is determined by the majority power (quite a lot like most other things), and oddly enough - just because you have the right to free speech, doesn't mean you won't get severely punished for it if it pisses off those in power. Is it unfair? Well, that assumes fairness is obtainable. It's not. History has always been written by the victors, and those in power will always make the rules. Hierarchies have always existed, and will always exist.

So, in relation to language - it just depends where you are and who you're dealing with. As I said before, anonymity (and lack of immediate recourse) makes for a lot of idiots in MMOs who feel like it's fine saying whatever they want. Practically speaking, they are fine - if there's no one to punish them, then habits will not change. However, another danger of the practice is that once something becomes a habit, it leaks into other areas of your life subconsciously. I guarantee you, you will never be hired for a 6-figure salary if you ever use the word "Gay" or "N*****." It won't happen. You'll be stuck at McDonald's bitching about the cost of gas. Try using either one on a grad-school application; same thing will happen. You'll be put in the "Rejected" pile so quickly they won't have time to look at your credentials (unless, of course, it's a constructive abstract dealing with the flamboyancy of either term in an education light - but that's a different context). Most people know this. When it matters, when your livelihood depends on you not being a jerk, most people will opt for the easiest route to their goal.

Those that row against the flow, and have been successful doing so, have done so in an extremely calculated manner so as to talk in the language of the majority power while also introducing new ideas. Those are the smart people.

Others are monumental idiots.

Originally posted by Zorvan

Some random rules from the RoC Miss Sanya should take a moment to read:

MMORPG.com is a site to discuss massively multiplayer online roleplay gaming. While users are encouraged and permitted to use our Off-Topic forum to discuss real life and non-MMORPG gaming, threads concerning sensitive subjects such as religion, politics, or ethics may be locked or deleted if determined out of hand by the MMORPG.com moderator staff.
 

Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums.

Exactly right.

Having read most of what is posted on mmorpg for a few years, I have to say that your collum on the industrys inner workings is the best of a reasonably good bunch. Mmorpg should sell another ad and give you a raise.

I could sware that this artical was writtin to incite flaming.

Good job!

"When you say someone who is physically weak “throws like a girl,” that you got a good bargain by “Jewing the seller down,” and that something contemptible is “gay,” your speech reflects at best the result of a sick, bigoted culture. At worst your speech is saying you are sick and bigoted."
 

Is this a joke? If I want to say "something is 'retarded' or 'gay'" in the privacy of my own home or with people I know and won't take offense to it, I will. I'm smart enough to have something called tact. You trying to completely eradicate such sayings that YOU deem to be offensive and that are not "politically correct" is, to phrase is like you, naive at best and dillusional at worst. It's laughable that you even consider someone saying "you throw like a girl" to be sick and bigoted...Whatever, no use in trying to persuade you, you're just an ignorant girl who throws like a gay retarded jew. < how's that for you! can't wait to be banned because im sick and bigoted...lol

According to her profile, she's 11 years old; you guys were all just trolled by an 11 year old.

Oh, sorry for derailing, let me get back on topic: You gay retarded fags were all just mentally raped by an 11 year old.

/sarcasm

Originally posted by Egamst3k

Words are purely, completely, and utterly subjective. Meaning is interpreted by the receiver, and is affected by social context and expected intent. Basically, words mean whatever the listener/reader believes they mean.

The astute transmitter learns to navigate expected context and subjective interpretation, making sure that their intended message is as close as possible to the interpreted one.

The idiotic transmitter will assume that their form of communication, with its purely subjective qualities, is best and/or that it should be tolerated merely because they're using it. There's nothing that says subjective interpretations must be equally treated, and they often aren't.

Humans are finicky and often cowardly beings. The younger, in general, the more cowardly. Anonymity gives them false courage, but lock them in a room with the people they have issues with, and suddenly their vim and vigor disappear in favor of excuses and accusations. It becomes dangerous if it persists into old age, where ignorance of the subjectivity of interpretation leads to miscommunication or laziness.

Is language evolving? Yes. However, acceptable language is determined by the majority power (quite a lot like most other things), and oddly enough - just because you have the right to free speech, doesn't mean you won't get severely punished for it if it pisses off those in power. Is it unfair? Well, that assumes fairness is obtainable. It's not. History has always been written by the victors, and those in power will always make the rules. Hierarchies have always existed, and will always exist.

So, in relation to language - it just depends where you are and who you're dealing with. As I said before, anonymity (and lack of immediate recourse) makes for a lot of idiots in MMOs who feel like it's fine saying whatever they want. Practically speaking, they are fine - if there's no one to punish them, then habits will not change. However, another danger of the practice is that once something becomes a habit, it leaks into other areas of your life subconsciously. I guarantee you, you will never be hired for a 6-figure salary if you ever use the word "Gay" or "N*****." It won't happen. You'll be stuck at McDonald's bitching about the cost of gas. Try using either one on a grad-school application; same thing will happen. You'll be put in the "Rejected" pile so quickly they won't have time to look at your credentials (unless, of course, it's a constructive abstract dealing with the flamboyancy of either term in an education light - but that's a different context). Most people know this. When it matters, when your livelihood depends on you not being a jerk, most people will opt for the easiest route to their goal.

Those that row against the flow, and have been successful doing so, have done so in an extremely calculated manner so as to talk in the language of the majority power while also introducing new ideas. Those are the smart people.

Others are monumental idiots.

This!  Egamst3k has it exact.  I believe that is the point that Sanya is trying to make in the article that everybody seems to be trying to ignore.  Take the article from a different perspective of somebody in the Customer Service position and it does make sense that you have to please the majority.  And seeing that some words, even if they have evolved in meaning (somebody mentioned gay in an earlier post as changed in meaning...it hasn't really) CAN be acceptable in your groups/circle of friends.  However, in the majority of the population, in public, it might not be.  So the best thing people can do, which is what I believe Sanya to be aiming for in this article, is that while you can talk in /whisper, /group, ventrilo or teamspeak in any manner you wish with your friends and guildmates, you should have a publicly civil tongue when you are in the presence of others.  This way you can't really offend them, or if you did not purposefully using words that are easily able to use in offensive; and you show a more intelligent side to yourself, because the person speaking like "yo n*gga, i gots me that new item so imma wreck sh*t now" isn't going to sound the brightest person in the world.

Originally posted by 7jax

Originally posted by Egamst3k

Words are purely, completely, and utterly subjective. Meaning is interpreted by the receiver, and is affected by social context and expected intent. Basically, words mean whatever the listener/reader believes they mean.

The astute transmitter learns to navigate expected context and subjective interpretation, making sure that their intended message is as close as possible to the interpreted one.

The idiotic transmitter will assume that their form of communication, with its purely subjective qualities, is best and/or that it should be tolerated merely because they're using it. There's nothing that says subjective interpretations must be equally treated, and they often aren't.

Humans are finicky and often cowardly beings. The younger, in general, the more cowardly. Anonymity gives them false courage, but lock them in a room with the people they have issues with, and suddenly their vim and vigor disappear in favor of excuses and accusations. It becomes dangerous if it persists into old age, where ignorance of the subjectivity of interpretation leads to miscommunication or laziness.

Is language evolving? Yes. However, acceptable language is determined by the majority power (quite a lot like most other things), and oddly enough - just because you have the right to free speech, doesn't mean you won't get severely punished for it if it pisses off those in power. Is it unfair? Well, that assumes fairness is obtainable. It's not. History has always been written by the victors, and those in power will always make the rules. Hierarchies have always existed, and will always exist.

So, in relation to language - it just depends where you are and who you're dealing with. As I said before, anonymity (and lack of immediate recourse) makes for a lot of idiots in MMOs who feel like it's fine saying whatever they want. Practically speaking, they are fine - if there's no one to punish them, then habits will not change. However, another danger of the practice is that once something becomes a habit, it leaks into other areas of your life subconsciously. I guarantee you, you will never be hired for a 6-figure salary if you ever use the word "Gay" or "N*****." It won't happen. You'll be stuck at McDonald's bitching about the cost of gas. Try using either one on a grad-school application; same thing will happen. You'll be put in the "Rejected" pile so quickly they won't have time to look at your credentials (unless, of course, it's a constructive abstract dealing with the flamboyancy of either term in an education light - but that's a different context). Most people know this. When it matters, when your livelihood depends on you not being a jerk, most people will opt for the easiest route to their goal.

Those that row against the flow, and have been successful doing so, have done so in an extremely calculated manner so as to talk in the language of the majority power while also introducing new ideas. Those are the smart people.

Others are monumental idiots.

 

This!  Egamst3k has it exact.  I believe that is the point that Sanya is trying to make in the article that everybody seems to be trying to ignore.  Take the article from a different perspective of somebody in the Customer Service position and it does make sense that you have to please the majority.  And seeing that some words, even if they have evolved in meaning (somebody mentioned gay in an earlier post as changed in meaning...it hasn't really) CAN be acceptable in your groups/circle of friends.  However, in the majority of the population, in public, it might not be.  So the best thing people can do, which is what I believe Sanya to be aiming for in this article, is that while you can talk in /whisper, /group, ventrilo or teamspeak in any manner you wish with your friends and guildmates, you should have a publicly civil tongue when you are in the presence of others.  This way you can't really offend them, or if you did not purposefully using words that are easily able to use in offensive; and you show a more intelligent side to yourself, because the person speaking like "yo n*gga, i gots me that new item so imma wreck sh*t now" isn't going to sound the brightest person in the world.

Yes, it's called tact. Nobody should go out of their way to offend somebody or say things that they know will piss people off but the reality is you can't stop that from happening, short of killing them or putting them in prison. That being said, in terms of an MMO community since that's what we're talking about here. If someone breaches the ToS then ban them because they breached the terms of service, don't try to push on them your moral beliefs because it's not your place. Now when talking about real life, take things on a case by case basis. Sometimes people are simply kidding around. Should we burn all the movies and books that have used "language" in a non politically correct way even if they're simply kidding around? If not then I don't think we should go about eliminating it from real life.

So yes, people should ideally be tactful and yes people should be allowed to kid around as well. Eliminating freedom of speech is a heavy price to pay for not offending some people.

Edit: I don't think she was trying to say that in order to please the majority we should act with manners while in public chat for instance (although this is probably not a bad idea). To me, she seemed to have some deep personal problems with people who use this "politically incorrect" language AT ALL. As in, no matter where you say it. Her point was that she was surprised to see people defending what in her mind was the right way to act and what to say in an MMO community or for that matter online community. It's exactly that though, in her mind. The issue here is if you disagree with her you'd surely get a large cup of haterade shoved down your throat. She seems to think her point of view should be held by everyone in society and we should all adopt the politically correct mindset and act like robots in order to wash away the influence of a "bigoted" society. Only problem is a) that would be boring and b) it's never gonna happen! It's human nature and the anonymity of the internet just brings out the worst in us. Human nature hasn't changed since, well, forever, so it's not going to change anytime soon =)

Originally posted by 7jax

Originally posted by Egamst3k

Words are purely, completely, and utterly subjective. Meaning is interpreted by the receiver, and is affected by social context and expected intent. Basically, words mean whatever the listener/reader believes they mean.

The astute transmitter learns to navigate expected context and subjective interpretation, making sure that their intended message is as close as possible to the interpreted one.

The idiotic transmitter will assume that their form of communication, with its purely subjective qualities, is best and/or that it should be tolerated merely because they're using it. There's nothing that says subjective interpretations must be equally treated, and they often aren't.

Humans are finicky and often cowardly beings. The younger, in general, the more cowardly. Anonymity gives them false courage, but lock them in a room with the people they have issues with, and suddenly their vim and vigor disappear in favor of excuses and accusations. It becomes dangerous if it persists into old age, where ignorance of the subjectivity of interpretation leads to miscommunication or laziness.

Is language evolving? Yes. However, acceptable language is determined by the majority power (quite a lot like most other things), and oddly enough - just because you have the right to free speech, doesn't mean you won't get severely punished for it if it pisses off those in power. Is it unfair? Well, that assumes fairness is obtainable. It's not. History has always been written by the victors, and those in power will always make the rules. Hierarchies have always existed, and will always exist.

So, in relation to language - it just depends where you are and who you're dealing with. As I said before, anonymity (and lack of immediate recourse) makes for a lot of idiots in MMOs who feel like it's fine saying whatever they want. Practically speaking, they are fine - if there's no one to punish them, then habits will not change. However, another danger of the practice is that once something becomes a habit, it leaks into other areas of your life subconsciously. I guarantee you, you will never be hired for a 6-figure salary if you ever use the word "Gay" or "N*****." It won't happen. You'll be stuck at McDonald's bitching about the cost of gas. Try using either one on a grad-school application; same thing will happen. You'll be put in the "Rejected" pile so quickly they won't have time to look at your credentials (unless, of course, it's a constructive abstract dealing with the flamboyancy of either term in an education light - but that's a different context). Most people know this. When it matters, when your livelihood depends on you not being a jerk, most people will opt for the easiest route to their goal.

Those that row against the flow, and have been successful doing so, have done so in an extremely calculated manner so as to talk in the language of the majority power while also introducing new ideas. Those are the smart people.

Others are monumental idiots.

 

This!  Egamst3k has it exact.  I believe that is the point that Sanya is trying to make in the article that everybody seems to be trying to ignore.  Take the article from a different perspective of somebody in the Customer Service position and it does make sense that you have to please the majority.  And seeing that some words, even if they have evolved in meaning (somebody mentioned gay in an earlier post as changed in meaning...it hasn't really) CAN be acceptable in your groups/circle of friends.  However, in the majority of the population, in public, it might not be.  So the best thing people can do, which is what I believe Sanya to be aiming for in this article, is that while you can talk in /whisper, /group, ventrilo or teamspeak in any manner you wish with your friends and guildmates, you should have a publicly civil tongue when you are in the presence of others.  This way you can't really offend them, or if you did not purposefully using words that are easily able to use in offensive; and you show a more intelligent side to yourself, because the person speaking like "yo n*gga, i gots me that new item so imma wreck sh*t now" isn't going to sound the brightest person in the world.

Wait.....<blinks>.....you are proposing a conformity to the masses even though some would strongly disagree with the masses???? If people always rolled over and did this we wouldn't have ended slavery when we did (if ever..who knows).       How very seriously IRONIC.

Ugh, these posts are getting entirely too long to read.

To the guy that commented about "white priveledge." You sir, have an outdated perspective.

I'm sure in some backwards corner of the USA you can chop off your mullet and go into a bank and get a loan before a black guy does.

In reality though, some poor white guy with a mullet freshly shaven and no/poor credit is not going to get a loan period. Neither will a black guy with the same financial situation.  However, if said black guy has a job and credit, he will get the loan where as the trailer trash with no credit won't.

Guess what...banks are out to make money.  If you have the credit, you get the loan, if you don't, you won't. Doesn't matter where you come from or what color your skin is, it matters what Experion says about your ability to pay your bills.

I'm so sick of people trying these tired arguments.  White priveledge my ass.

 Wow. I haven't gotten so frustrated reading an article in quite a while.  Read on and I'll explain why it got me riled up.

Here's the deal: I'll tell you what's truly ignorant.  Saying that someone is scum because they use the word "gay" in conversation is what's ignorant. This faux morality is really starting to get old. The PC crowd has been doing the same thing for 40 years: They don't believe in God and don't have any REAL moral code, but they try to create their own relativistic, humanistic morality with butt-kissing platitudes to supposedly under-represented minorities. If you're really that concerned with being nice and fair, then let's see the PC love spread all around. Let's see Sanya or any other PC enthusiast get up in arms about someone using terms like redneck or hillbilly. It simply isn't going to happen. Why? Because they're white, religious, and conservative.

Also, I'm getting tired of gays being placed in the same conversation as african-americans, jews, and so on. Frankly, it's an insult to these latter groups who have been wronged throughout history for something they have no control over (their ethnicity) with what is, as far as we know, a mere choice. Yeah, yeah, I hear it coming now. "Omg, being gay is not a choice." Well, all I know is that a black person didn't make himself black, but if I go out and have sex with another guy, then I have succeeded in making myself gay. I may have a genetic makeup that predisposes me to being a murderer, but that doesn't mean I was born a murderer.

The bottom line is simple: Worry about how a word or term will affect the actual people you're referring to, not how it will affect Mr. or Ms. Self-Righteous. Look, I love black people, asians, women, the mentally challenged, and every other "under-represented minority," and I would personally never shout out the n-word in real life or in a chat on a game, but to say that someone is scum if they do is simply taking things too far. Furthermore, to suggest that the n-word and gay are equally offensive is outrageous.

Originally posted by daelnor

Ugh, these posts are getting entirely too long to read.

To the guy that commented about "white priveledge." You sir, have an outdated perspective.

I'm sure in some backwards corner of the USA you can chop off your mullet and go into a bank and get a loan before a black guy does.

In reality though, some poor white guy with a mullet freshly shaven and no/poor credit is not going to get a loan period. Neither will a black guy with the same financial situation.  However, if said black guy has a job and credit, he will get the loan where as the trailer trash with no credit won't.

Guess what...banks are out to make money.  If you have the credit, you get the loan, if you don't, you won't. Doesn't matter where you come from or what color your skin is, it matters what Experion says about your ability to pay your bills.

I'm so sick of people trying these tired arguments.  White priveledge my ass.

But...but....Sanya linked a .pdf titled "White Privilege" from the 1980's which shows how it's so current and applicable. How could Mr. mullet be wrong when he is only affirming what the glorious Sanya says?

I mean, surely Sanya wouldn't lie or misrepresent things to support her claims, would she? Surely not.....

Hey, I never said I agreed with Sanya on this article, but I'm probably more of a realist and less of a politically correct idealist than many here.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said Zorvan, except I think everyone is being a bit harsh on Sanya.  It was an OPINION piece of fluff, and hell, it has generated about 14 pages of forum posts now. I don't think she meant to bait and troll anyone, I just don't think she appreciated how many people would vehemently disagree with her.

It's a sign of the times.  People are tired of being sheep.  Tired of being told what's ok to say and not to say, tired of being told they are wrong and should apologize for things that their great great great grandfathers may or may not have done.

Me...I'm floating around in the middle somewhere, My father descended from irish immigrants, my mother is an Indian woman from the west indies.  I have lived the worst of both ends of the spectrum, never quite fitting in either, and I've definitely seen the polar shift from the minorities being downtrodden to the majority being crucified simply for being the majority.

On either end it's ridiculous, and I blame most of it on the apologist "politically correct" climate that has been nurtured in this country. It is the motherload of knee jerk reaction, over compensating for things that have already happened. There  was a point and time that many of the things going on today were needed, perhaps, but that time is past, as the pendulum is swinging the other way now and doing more damage than it is repairing.

As far as the actual topic of this thread, as derailed as it is...I could care less what people say in a chat.  I can always block them.

But from a CS point of view, and on the dev side as opposed to the player side, I can see the side Sanya presents also, though I don't agree with her entirely. 

Prejudice is an ugly thing, most of us are guilty of it.  Some people are blatantly prejudiced, but many of the worst cloak their discrimination beneath a false veil of rightous anger....which is the worst.  They don't even have the decency to admit their own discriminations to themselves, let alone anyone else.

---

Originally posted by kalagaraz
 You say you get annoyed by people who say things like "Nvidia's Gay" or "Man that's gay" or something similar and I find you to be ignorant for that. If you are a writer, you should know that definitions of words are not set in stone, meanings change through their usage.  Gay use to mean happy, then it use to mean being homosexual, now in the generation that I grew up in (I'm 20 now) gay was always used as a word just to mean something that's was lame or stupid. "Man I paid $4000 for that motorcycle and the dang clutch broke the next day", "Awww dude that's gay". 
People who want to argue about people's word usage are just being ignorant themselves.  People are not required to follow your strict rules for word usage. Based on this article, I'm surprised you don't get upset every time you read a book and see the writer using personification... "The tree whispered to me as I walked by, almost as if it felt my pain. "..."Ahaha trees can't talk! what a ignornant fool!
Now while I personally may not use the N word myself I don't get all upset when I see someone else use it. If you pay attention, you will notice that it is used a lot more commonly even in the real world, not just in anonymous chat.  While it may be ironic or anyoxymoron, that cause is due to LESS racism, not more. Black (I say black, because all my black friends in real life hate being called african american. I quote "I'm not from africa! I was born and raised here in america, I am american!") people have always referred to each other like that, but as younger black kids make more white friends their white friends start to use it as well, and it becomes less and less taboo every day. 

---

Yes.

I think she is right.  I base this on the fact that any 8 year old can say what he wants to and get away with it on the internet.  The anonymity of the internet turns everyone into a tuff guy who's opinion is never wrong.  I played World of Warcraft for 4ish years and almost every time I left it was because the community was the equivalent of a bunch of kids who were bullied in highschool seeking revenge on every person that was in thier path. 

I say nigger and other racist comments but I don't say it when someone around me could get offended.  I keep it in the closesness of my own friends.  I'm not out to hurt anyone's feelings and I would hope that others act and feel the same way but it just isn't true.  When you play video games with others, especially the amount of people in WoW, you will get mixed feelings on varying subjects.  Some of those subjects may offend someone and they feel the need to speak up about it to the original player who started the discussion or mentioned said heated topic.  Generally (please note i said generally and not all the time) the person who offended the other person gets offended that someone was offended by what he/she said and will then argue and do everything in his/her power to discredit the other person and make them look stupid. 

The bad part about this and the internet is the anonymity.  Anonymity empowers the 115 lb nerd who could never stand up for himself in highschool to slander-fuck someone in open public.  It generally has no consequences and is usually provoked by the rest of the community with their snide remarks.  My basic theory is that these people who act out in video games and act as if they don't care about other people's feelings are the ones who were treated poorly in highschool, have bad relationships with their parents, feel misunderstood by their peers, or generally just don't care about hurting other peoples feelings.  The fact is that this sort of maturity...or lack there of is sad. 

I, personally, blame parents today for the way their kids act.  I know that these people aren't all kids but a good marjority of them are.  Using a video game as a babysitter is unacceptable and I think parents should step up be an actual parent.  They need to know what their kid is doing and saying when they are online. 

Punishments should be more harsh than they are from video game CSRs and GMs.  The fact that you can go on most video games today and cuss someone out for no apparent reason and only end up with a 24 hour suspension if the other person is lucky is quite shameful.  I think if CSRs and GMs would step up and out right ban these people that it would get the point accross.  People will be upset and talk bad and hate you on the forums but most people will praise you for actually doing your job and keeping the peace. 

I also propose that a log be kept for one week of the chat sessions that people have on MMO's.  I think that this should be in the parental features that most MMO's provide today with their games.  It would be held for one week and then several days after that week and then ultimately deleted.  It would highlight swear words and any similarities such as "phuck" or "$hit" so that the parents can see how their child acts while online.  It can also provide detailed information about tickets that were opened against them for certain behaviours.  I believe this would alleviate some of the stress that can be found in many MMOs today. 

First and foremost we are playing a game.  It should be enjoyable, but there is always someone who wants to ruin it for someone else.  Anonymity promotes conflict.  I do believe in the /ignore features and I also believe in the chat filters but the fact that those are provided in-game does not give someone a license to verbal-fuck me in the A.  Most of the people who act this way do not act the same way out on the street.  If you take away the anonymity and help provide parent's a way to see what their child or teen is doing then I believe you will be one step further to nurturing a great gaming community that people want to be a part of. 

If you made it this far I commend you on reading the whole thing and look forward to your comments on my thoughts.

-Thafireball

After reading this whole thread I am sure more than ever that US citizens should be more concerned about their general racism towards non-US population than the one they show towards their own. It also serves very well as an insight into the problems of the US education.

Originally posted by Kolapz

After reading this whole thread I am sure more than ever that US citizens should be more concerned about their general racism towards non-US population than the one they show towards their own. It also serves very well as an insight into the problems of the US education.

Ignorance can be found ANYWHERE on the planet, not just the US. If I might add, that was a pretty ignorant statement. I have lived in many countries and seen many different types of "hate", it is NOT exclusive to the US. You failed. So many countries have stupid things to say about Americans, jokes, remarks, whatever...It's global.

Everyone needs to be aware, and the sooner we stop looking at the colour of one's skin, or how much wealth someone has, or what disability they have to live with, or even what sex they sleep with, the sooner "racism" will cease to exist.

The truth of the matter is, how we let words affect us. That is what it boils down to. If you let something upset you, only then, does it have power over you. I for one, will not let a mere word "victimize" me.

Now I understand that sometimes words can lead to more, it can breed hate, and spread stupidity. But to be honest, this is something that has to be stopped at it's roots.

In the HOME. Not in a game.....

And back to the front page we go.

Originally posted by 7jax

Originally posted by Egamst3k

Words are purely, completely, and utterly subjective. Meaning is interpreted by the receiver, and is affected by social context and expected intent. Basically, words mean whatever the listener/reader believes they mean.

The astute transmitter learns to navigate expected context and subjective interpretation, making sure that their intended message is as close as possible to the interpreted one.

The idiotic transmitter will assume that their form of communication, with its purely subjective qualities, is best and/or that it should be tolerated merely because they're using it. There's nothing that says subjective interpretations must be equally treated, and they often aren't.

Humans are finicky and often cowardly beings. The younger, in general, the more cowardly. Anonymity gives them false courage, but lock them in a room with the people they have issues with, and suddenly their vim and vigor disappear in favor of excuses and accusations. It becomes dangerous if it persists into old age, where ignorance of the subjectivity of interpretation leads to miscommunication or laziness.

Is language evolving? Yes. However, acceptable language is determined by the majority power (quite a lot like most other things), and oddly enough - just because you have the right to free speech, doesn't mean you won't get severely punished for it if it pisses off those in power. Is it unfair? Well, that assumes fairness is obtainable. It's not. History has always been written by the victors, and those in power will always make the rules. Hierarchies have always existed, and will always exist.

So, in relation to language - it just depends where you are and who you're dealing with. As I said before, anonymity (and lack of immediate recourse) makes for a lot of idiots in MMOs who feel like it's fine saying whatever they want. Practically speaking, they are fine - if there's no one to punish them, then habits will not change. However, another danger of the practice is that once something becomes a habit, it leaks into other areas of your life subconsciously. I guarantee you, you will never be hired for a 6-figure salary if you ever use the word "Gay" or "N*****." It won't happen. You'll be stuck at McDonald's bitching about the cost of gas. Try using either one on a grad-school application; same thing will happen. You'll be put in the "Rejected" pile so quickly they won't have time to look at your credentials (unless, of course, it's a constructive abstract dealing with the flamboyancy of either term in an education light - but that's a different context). Most people know this. When it matters, when your livelihood depends on you not being a jerk, most people will opt for the easiest route to their goal.

Those that row against the flow, and have been successful doing so, have done so in an extremely calculated manner so as to talk in the language of the majority power while also introducing new ideas. Those are the smart people.

Others are monumental idiots.

 

This!  Egamst3k has it exact.  I believe that is the point that Sanya is trying to make in the article that everybody seems to be trying to ignore.  Take the article from a different perspective of somebody in the Customer Service position and it does make sense that you have to please the majority.  And seeing that some words, even if they have evolved in meaning (somebody mentioned gay in an earlier post as changed in meaning...it hasn't really) CAN be acceptable in your groups/circle of friends.  However, in the majority of the population, in public, it might not be.  So the best thing people can do, which is what I believe Sanya to be aiming for in this article, is that while you can talk in /whisper, /group, ventrilo or teamspeak in any manner you wish with your friends and guildmates, you should have a publicly civil tongue when you are in the presence of others.  This way you can't really offend them, or if you did not purposefully using words that are easily able to use in offensive; and you show a more intelligent side to yourself, because the person speaking like "yo n*gga, i gots me that new item so imma wreck sh*t now" isn't going to sound the brightest person in the world.

I'm pretty sure most feel that way.  My problem is trying to say a person using a flagrant, bigoted term somehow equates to someone using a catchphrase that has become quite common amongst some without any inent of those using it directed at any particualr group of people and saying both parties have the same intentions, hatred, and vile opinion of fellow human beings.  That doesn't mean myself or some others think saying those types of things are watercooler chat or used anywhere and everywhere without thinking of how your words will affect others.  At the very least how it would affect others opinions of yourself.

However, trying to say they're both the same and come from some deepseated hatred towards others is ridiculous and rather asinine. 

...and the moment you start doing crap like stating those types of comments or posting a link to a White Privilidge.pdf it moves beyond a CSR perspective on chat in mmos and moves into an entirely different area.  Which is fine, I don't see anything wrong with the discussion but lets be realistic there's more to this article than just "think before you type/talk because your words can hurt or be misintrepreted".  It would have been nice if that was all there was to it but it was made rather apparent by the writer that it wasn't.

Really great stuff Sanya,

I love articles of this type. When discussions like this come up I'm reminded of

what a new social frontier 'cyberspace' continues to be.

The crux of these problems with 'freedom of self expression' is that the "freedom' comes with consequences, always.

My favorite line in the article is,

"Anonymous jerks sitting alone have to turn to other anonymous jerks sitting alone for their social behavior modification."

I've rarely seen the concept of social modelling put so well.

In the end it is not the police or GMs/CSRs that catalyze change in society, it is the society itself.

Excellent work on this one, and your whole "Underbelly" series.

WesCrag

edit: Thnx Zorvan for catching my mistake, and apologies to Sanya whom I originally identified as Dana.

Originally posted by WesCrag

Really great stuff Dana,

 

Dana didn't write the article, Sanya did.

 If you want to hear the good stuff you have to tune into glff or gooc on Elendilmer.  Those channels get crazy sometimes.  

Only the insensitive will "forget" there are real people playing a game with them in the first place, right?  Most would simply ignore a rude comment from someone like that.  Offended enough to open a  ticket?  Go right ahead, that's what they're there for. 

Not being able to distinguish genuine, malicious bigotry from thoughless comments only exasperates this sad situation.     

It does seem LoTRO has a better community on the server I play on and I find it more enjoyable to play there than many of the other games I've stopped playing because I'm sick of the crap I see people saying. It's not just curse words that get old it's the things in general so many people say and the attitudes they have.

What's sad to me is that we even have to have a filter. When you go into a public place where you know there are all kinds of people that you don't know is it not possible to act civilized? Everyone who says it's no big deal to say this or do that and that people shouldn't throw a hissy fit when someone says something inappropriate is part of the problem. We are becoming more and more desensitized and it seems more and more people are completely selfish and are so numb that they find it enjoyable to make other people angry just to feel some sort of control over their own life. Sure there are other reasons but you don't have to be religious or you don't have to have a proper upbringing to know deep down inside that acting the way so many do online just isn't cool. Making people feel miserable doesn't make you a better person.

It's like these forums. For a lot of people it's a competition about who's smarter and can make the other guy feel like he's insignificant. There's no compassion, no manners and no mercy whatsoever. It's all about me, me, me ,me and how I can make myself look better and make somebody else feel stupid. I've been a member here for awhile but I've only posted a handful of times because I know there's no point when I'll just get flamed like I'm sure I will after writing this by somebody and why feed the monsters when you don't have to.

I guess all I'm trying to say is when are we going to grow up? When are we going to start acting different and start treating each other with more respect and not acting like complete jerks everywhere? How bout we start here and in our games by actually having respect for other people and helping us all to enjoy the game. If you think something you say might be offensive why say it and provoke somebody or cause them to feel uncomfortable? Is it really that important to make somebody upset just so you can feel powerful? Playing games is supposed to feel fun and let you relax and not think about life's pressures but instead we just feel more pressure. It would be nice to be in an atmosphere where people are just generally happy because they are not stepping on each others toes all the time and be respectful of each other.
 

Originally posted by Zorlofe

It does seem LoTRO has a better community on the server I play on and I find it more enjoyable to play there than many of the other games I've stopped playing because I'm sick of the crap I see people saying. It's not just curse words that get old it's the things in general so many people say and the attitudes they have.

What's sad to me is that we even have to have a filter. When you go into a public place where you know there are all kinds of people that you don't know is it not possible to act civilized? Everyone who says it's no big deal to say this or do that and that people shouldn't throw a hissy fit when someone says something inappropriate is part of the problem. We are becoming more and more desensitized and it seems more and more people are completely selfish and are so numb that they find it enjoyable to make other people angry just to feel some sort of control over their own life. Sure there are other reasons but you don't have to be religious or you don't have to have a proper upbringing to know deep down inside that acting the way so many do online just isn't cool. Making people feel miserable doesn't make you a better person.

It's like these forums. For a lot of people it's a competition about who's smarter and can make the other guy feel like he's insignificant. There's no compassion, no manners and no mercy whatsoever. It's all about me, me, me ,me and how I can make myself look better and make somebody else feel stupid. I've been a member here for awhile but I've only posted a handful of times because I know there's no point when I'll just get flamed like I'm sure I will after writing this by somebody and why feed the monsters when you don't have to.

I guess all I'm trying to say is when are we going to grow up? When are we going to start acting different and start treating each other with more respect and not acting like complete jerks everywhere? How bout we start here and in our games by actually having respect for other people and helping us all to enjoy the game. If you think something you say might be offensive why say it and provoke somebody or cause them to feel uncomfortable? Is it really that important to make somebody upset just so you can feel powerful? Playing games is supposed to feel fun and let you relax and not think about life's pressures but instead we just feel more pressure. It would be nice to be in an atmosphere where people are just generally happy because they are not stepping on each others toes all the time and be respectful of each other.
 

Is the price we pay for freedom

Is actually the solution to not have con-tempt over meaningless bullshit

Is a matter of individual perception and there is no way we can cater to all the different billions of perceptions

Other people can't make you angry since that decision process resides in the chemical releases in your brain, not theirs

Worry about controling your own life/emotion since trying to control what others say is futile.

If you feel stupid then that is yours and of your making not anyone elses...own it if you wish.

Learning these facts will aid you in "growing up"

As much as I am a complete Sanya fanboi, I can't help but think that she views the majority (white males) as being less sensitive to insult.  And, maybe we are.  It is interesting the cultures that are allowed in various open chats.  In a city I used to live in, my black friends used "nigger" all the time, sometimes to me.  I was never called "cracker," but white males they didn't like were.  This was open chat.  (FWIW, my liberally-instilled sense of PC-fear, which I hate, never allowed me to return the term of endearment to my black friends... even during conversations where "nigger" was every third word.)

I think though, that her point was swept away.  I get this all the time when I write for the masses.  It seemed that the "progress" were people were chilling.  People just focused on a few sentences.  I hate, as a poster, when that happens.  You kind of lose yourself in the waves with a crazy look on your face, "but wait, that's not really what I wanted to say."

Anyway, I hate that her column doesn't seem to want to pop up in my RSS... as to why I am 5 days late.

I've seen happen in other games what you're talking about here.  I always felt that LoTRO had a very good community vs. some of the other MMO's I have tried.  Sadly there will always be, on the interwebs or otherwise, people who enjoy saying outlandish things just to stir up the bee's nest.  I've always waffled between justifying those comments with one of my own or just ignoring them altogether since most of the time these folks are just looking for the attention.  Btw, your comment about the AoC guild....ugh.....easily the most immature and worst chat I have seen in any of the MMO's I have seen.  On the flip side I was pleasantly suprised with the beta community on Aion this weekend.  Imo your next article needs to be about folks who find "creative" and "offensive" ways to display their ignorance in character names or forum avatars.  You may reference my forum avatar as an example.

Originally posted by SpugNation

As much as I am a complete Sanya fanboi, I can't help but think that she views the majority (white males) as being less sensitive to insult.  And, maybe we are.  It is interesting the cultures that are allowed in various open chats.  In a city I used to live in, my black friends used "nigger" all the time, sometimes to me.  I was never called "cracker," but white males they didn't like were.  This was open chat.  (FWIW, my liberally-instilled sense of PC-fear, which I hate, never allowed me to return the term of endearment to my black friends... even during conversations where "nigger" was every third word.)

I think though, that her point was swept away.  I get this all the time when I write for the masses.  It seemed that the "progress" were people were chilling.  People just focused on a few sentences.  I hate, as a poster, when that happens.  You kind of lose yourself in the waves with a crazy look on your face, "but wait, that's not really what I wanted to say."

Anyway, I hate that her column doesn't seem to want to pop up in my RSS... as to why I am 5 days late.

Ya I have nothing against her but I do disagree with her opinions...

But..here is an idea, since you are a columnist (Snaya Weathers) I request that you do some research on emotional management and then write an article about MMO gamers and what they could do to manage their emotions better in the MMORPG's chat situations.

I challenge this of you and even double dare you!!  

Just for clarity, emotions have more to do with what you feel and not what you say

Originally posted by Warsong

Originally posted by Zorlofe

It does seem LoTRO has a better community on the server I play on and I find it more enjoyable to play there than many of the other games I've stopped playing because I'm sick of the crap I see people saying. It's not just curse words that get old it's the things in general so many people say and the attitudes they have.

What's sad to me is that we even have to have a filter. When you go into a public place where you know there are all kinds of people that you don't know is it not possible to act civilized? Everyone who says it's no big deal to say this or do that and that people shouldn't throw a hissy fit when someone says something inappropriate is part of the problem. We are becoming more and more desensitized and it seems more and more people are completely selfish and are so numb that they find it enjoyable to make other people angry just to feel some sort of control over their own life. Sure there are other reasons but you don't have to be religious or you don't have to have a proper upbringing to know deep down inside that acting the way so many do online just isn't cool. Making people feel miserable doesn't make you a better person.

It's like these forums. For a lot of people it's a competition about who's smarter and can make the other guy feel like he's insignificant. There's no compassion, no manners and no mercy whatsoever. It's all about me, me, me ,me and how I can make myself look better and make somebody else feel stupid. I've been a member here for awhile but I've only posted a handful of times because I know there's no point when I'll just get flamed like I'm sure I will after writing this by somebody and why feed the monsters when you don't have to.

I guess all I'm trying to say is when are we going to grow up? When are we going to start acting different and start treating each other with more respect and not acting like complete jerks everywhere? How bout we start here and in our games by actually having respect for other people and helping us all to enjoy the game. If you think something you say might be offensive why say it and provoke somebody or cause them to feel uncomfortable? Is it really that important to make somebody upset just so you can feel powerful? Playing games is supposed to feel fun and let you relax and not think about life's pressures but instead we just feel more pressure. It would be nice to be in an atmosphere where people are just generally happy because they are not stepping on each others toes all the time and be respectful of each other.
 

Is the price we pay for freedom

Is actually the solution to not have con-tempt over meaningless bullshit

Is a matter of individual perception and there is no way we can cater to all the different billions of perceptions

Other people can't make you angry since that decision process resides in the chemical releases in your brain, not theirs

Worry about controling your own life/emotion since trying to control what others say is futile.

If you feel stupid then that is yours and of your making not anyone elses...own it if you wish.

Learning these facts will aid you in "growing up"

Trust me I understand what you are saying and that's why I don't respond to people that act like that in game and is why I have hardly ever said anything here for the 2 years I've been a member. I don't wish to feel stupid concerning these topics because I don't. Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying and take me as a light weight and think I need to grow up. There's a reason I've been leading a gaming community for over five years. I've been helping to teach people better respect for eachother in game for awhile now (in my community) and that was my attempt here. I'll admit I don't always make the best attempts and convey myself the way I would like for it to come out though.

Also, understand my reply to you is not meant to be snide or rude but rather just a simple response as I may have been misunderstood .

Welcome to the evolution of the newer sacred cows.  Happens about once every 10 years or so and MMO as social space is still part of society.  Prolly more than ever before.   Also guilds as families have their effect on individuals perspectives and there is this idea floating around that the PVE player base cross games has become really tired of being pushed around by the more aggressive gamer types who tent to be as confrontational in their ooc  type chat as they are in their game play [prolly outside the game too].  To exasperate this the current dev community seems to favor the previously mentioned aggressive types and in most of the current mmo's make the rule sets more comfortable to them

what does this have to do with ooc tolerance?  Consider the new surge in lack there of as a collateral by product.  

Overall, I agree with people that some words shouldn't be used. The N word, for instance, has NO proper place in speech. If you use it, or other words like it, in the company of friends, I can't honestly begrudge you that. But using it in an open internet channel is NOT USING IT WITH YOUR ACCEPTING FRIENDS. Not only is there simply no acceptable application for that word (and many others) that you CAN'T use another word for, but the real issue is that you are playing a game run by a company who sets the rules that you AGREE to follow. Good luck trying the whole philosophical free speech bit with a CSR who has a handy copy of the EULA in front of him/her. Not to mention that "offensive words" are in fact offensive by and large for a reason.

For instance, it wouldn't matter a bit if it was commonly used. It wouldn't matter if it meant something other than what it literally means. But if I had people with british accents calling me a "Mud-caked inbred potatoe farmer" because I happened to be Irish.. even if that was condensed to one word, like "pikey," I'd always find it offensive. And 40 million of my ancestors DIDN'T get displaced/killed first so that that term could be made up and finally made into a slang term. Slaves from the continent of Africa did, which led to the use of the N word, and it is disrespectful in the extreme for anyone to use it because despite the fluidity of the language, the ORIGINAL SLUR still applies to the word.

To wrap this up, on the other hand, I don't go completely bug-*uck crazy if someone uses a word or phrase that I hate. I don't go crazy and report people unless what they are doing unbalances the game, or they directly harrass me so much that I can't avoid them using the in-game provided tools. And this goes for real life as well. People are allowed to be stupid, and it isn't my responsablity to fix them. I stand up for myself just fine, thank you very much. I don't need a CSR to step in and slap a ban on someone simply because he/she is saying something offensive. I have several options for dealing with people on the internet on a person to person basis that DON'T involve in any way appealing to a higher power than myself.

In MMOs in general, four obvious options are

1) Argue with the person until they shut up or are beaten back down into the horrible hell that they tried to drag themselves out of by yelling at you in general chat,

2) Put them on the IGNORE list and never deal with them again for as long as they play that character (or in some games, that account), 

3) Go through the trouble of finding them, ganking them, and generally making yourself feel better for meeting out the whole "eye for an eye" philosphy (or, similarly, root them out and help them through the problem, whichever feels right to you), and finally

4) QUIT THE GAME

In my view, the MOMENT you call in a CSR for a social/person to person issue you have failed miserably at the whole... GAME thing. A game isn't meant to be taken seriously. You shouldn't have to ask for help from a "parent" in a game. But when you do, it would be NICE to know that the people asking for help really, in fact, NEED help from that CSR, and aren't just pissed off so much that they can't do anything but react to their own powerful emotional needs.

All I ask is that if you find yourself offended by what someone says, please just try not to become what you yourself are uncomfortable being around. Stand on your own two feet if you would be so kind.

Dear Sanya,

Bigotry and idiocy is propogated by those that acknowledge it. And I am sad to say that you have wrote a full page article giving "acknowledgement dues" to something that doesnt deserve much more than a glance at best. I agree that words have meaning but I think you have lost site of your own arguement after that statement.

Gay - in its original meaning was to outline a persons behavior in a possitive and uplifting light.

Gay - then was switchted to describing a sexual preference.

Gay - is now used for both of the previous two descriptions but also outlines something that is out of the ordinary or even to some as unwholesome.

The point I am trying to illustrate here is that "Gay" is an orginization of letters and that is the end of it. The meaning derived is decided by the individual receiving the information. If the majority of the populace only observes "Gay" as a non offensive slang term, then that is what it will be. But if articles are published outlining how horrible the term is when used in such context. Then the ficle masses will easily be swayed and soon there will be one more ugly part of our language born.

I have always found it funny that no one has been able to call me a name in my adult life that has ever effected me personally. Because without credibility it is just noise, and if I was to react to it then I am inherently giving it credibility.

Originally posted by lilune666

Only the insensitive will "forget" there are real people playing a game with them in the first place, right?  Most would simply ignore a rude comment from someone like that.  Offended enough to open a  ticket?  Go right ahead, that's what they're there for. 

Not being able to distinguish genuine, malicious bigotry from thoughless comments only exasperates this sad situation.     

Exactly, I ignore rude comments and most bickering in chat channels except from a comical standpoint.  I could see possibly this hurting hardcore role players and people who get deeply into the immersion of the game and playerbase.

Myself I take it as a gameworld and no matter what part of the world or society you currently live in there will be immaturity and bickering the only effects it has on you is what you allow.

Originally posted by Siamko 

.......................

The point I am trying to illustrate here is that "Gay" is an orginization of letters and that is the end of it. The meaning derived is decided by the individual receiving the information. If the majority of the populace only observes "Gay" as a non offensive slang term, then that is what it will be. But if articles are published outlining how horrible the term is when used in such context. Then the ficle masses will easily be swayed and soon there will be one more ugly part of our language born.

I have always found it funny that no one has been able to call me a name in my adult life that has ever effected me personally. Because without credibility it is just noise, and if I was to react to it then I am inherently giving it credibility.

  Wow, finally something I can agree with on these forums.

Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

Originally posted by Siamko 

.......................

The point I am trying to illustrate here is that "Gay" is an orginization of letters and that is the end of it. The meaning derived is decided by the individual receiving the information. If the majority of the populace only observes "Gay" as a non offensive slang term, then that is what it will be. But if articles are published outlining how horrible the term is when used in such context. Then the ficle masses will easily be swayed and soon there will be one more ugly part of our language born.

I have always found it funny that no one has been able to call me a name in my adult life that has ever effected me personally. Because without credibility it is just noise, and if I was to react to it then I am inherently giving it credibility.

 

  Wow, finally something I can agree with on these forums.

I think its actually pretty scarey that someone posted something so logical on these forums.

and I agree with the concept.